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Set Hebrew to display as unpointed text


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#1 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 04:10 PM

Hi,

 

I copied Abram's title post and the following from http://www.accordanc...unpointed-text/

 

"This would be a great feature to have... reading unpointed Hebrew, difficult as it is, is good practice." To clarify, just the tagged Hebrew consonantal text.

 

I have no idea what would be involved in programming this. But I would be willing to pay for it in Acc 12 or following. Such a feature coupled with the Hebrew Construct search capabilities would really set Acc apart for the HB scholar.

 

If the consonantal text was all in Unicode, one could even change the font to a Paleo-Hebrew or Proto-Canaanite one (depending on your scholarly persuasion and where you were in the HB). This would not only set Acc apart for good, but could even cause some heart attacks. It’s a risk I would be willing to take. I'd even sign a waiver form.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

 

[added word "tagged"]


Edited by Michel Gilbert, 25 September 2015 - 04:19 PM.

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#2 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 05:49 PM

If there is an unpointed Hebrew text you should be able to do a User Bible out of it.

Of course ripping the pointing from a tagged text would be better because of the tagging still being present.

Actually you could do this for Greek also.

 

Perhaps a diacritic free mode ?

 

Incidentally, as a complete aside, Buth's Hebrew training material presents both pointed and unpointed text for training. I was told modern Hebrew books for teaching school children have vowels. I don't know personally but it would make sense.

 

thx

D


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Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

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#3 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 06:15 PM

Hi Daniel,

 

A tagged consonantal text is already available in BW, but you can't change the font. Since I own BW10, I already read an unpointed HB text.

 

BW excels in a few areas. But it doesn't have a syntax database, and Acc's GUI is much easier to use. I can't think of any HB scholar who wouldn't be drawn to the total package of a tagged consonantal text, Unicode font switchability, a GUI for searches, and a syntax database. I think Acc is in the best position to offer the package first. I would even consider working for Acc on such a project.

 

I agree about the Greek.

 

It is true that some groups of young school children learn to read with vowels.

 

If I ever write a second year Hebrew grammar (been thinking about it for years), I would include a section on unpointed texts and comparative Semitics.

 

Regards,

 

Michel


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#4 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 25 October 2015 - 03:25 PM

Just a for fun :

 

Attached File  PaleoJonah.jpg   39.31KB   2 downloads

 

It ain't tagged and there is no syntax but ...

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

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#5 farcas

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 11:09 PM

Agreed. An unpointed presentation of the HB tagged text would be a welcomed edition (along with Aramaic and Greek unaccented texts etc). And I think I'm in good company in requesting this. In a presentation on Accordance I gave at Harvard, Peter Machinist's first question was for this very feature. Others agreed: presenting the text in different ways would be a help.

 

Thanks!


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#6 Brian W. Davidson

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 07:34 AM

I'd like to be able to turn the Hebrew vowels and accents on and off.
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#7 Helen Brown

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 11:12 AM

You can turn these off for export, but it's not a trivial programming task to allow them to be turned off in the display, and this is why we have not offered that option despite many requests over the years.


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#8 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:48 PM

Hi Helen,

 

I suppose it would be even more difficult to program a paleo-Hebrew Unicode text. If Acc replaced final forms and removed vowel letters to produce such a text, scholars would disagree with some of the decisions. But, as long as they could edit the text, e.g., add or delete a consonant, redivide or emend words, redirect lexical entries, and edit the syntax database (a lot of this would be for their students), a base text would save them some time doing it all themselves. For those so inclined, the same text and features could also be used to produce a proto-Canaanitic text for parts of the Bible.

 

HB scholars who do their research in the context of the ANE would pay handsomely for such a module/program. I think it would be worth as much as the Original Languages Collection with Syntax Databases, or as much as BW10, i.e., instead of the big three Bible Software programs, there would be the big four.

 

However, I'm under no illusion that this will happen in Acc. But it is nice to dream. And, I think all of us ANE/HB scholars, Machinist included, have the same one.

 

Regards,

 

Michel


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#9 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 02:47 PM

Hmmm...., just dreaming here, but it seems to me that the following workflow could produce such a text:

 

Copy a section of the HMT, stripping all marks from the text (Accordance>Preferences>Export>Hebrew) and paste it into a text editing program. Pick a proto-Hebrew text, like one of those offered here (https://www.linguist...#AradLevelVILSU), search and replace any character mismatches, then switch the font to proto-Hebrew.

 

The proto-Hebrew text could then be pasted into a imported into Accordance as Bible (which would mean it could not be edited). Alternately, someone with a lot of time on their hands could make it into a User Note and paste the modified text in verse-by-verse. The User Note could then be edited at will.

 

I wonder if Peter Machinist has enough grad students for such a project.

 

Just a thought...


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#10 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 02:54 PM

That's close to what I did here : http://www.accordanc...ext/#entry82283

I didn't do any corrections. But that is an image of a User Bible import of a bit of Jonah with a Paleo-Hebrew font. You can get the unpointed text easily enough to do this and I believe it's within the licensed use for non-commercial projects.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

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#11 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 03:01 PM

Nice, Daniel!

 

I was amazed at the variety and quality of the various early Hebrew fonts Linguist Software offers. Since we can export from Accordance in SuperHebrew (which is a LS font), I wonder what the chance is that the various proto-fonts have the same character mapping? Sure would make everything easier.


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#12 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 03:06 PM

Yep, that's where my little experiment broke down :) I just don't have the requisite language knowledge.

 

BTW, I used http://opensiddur.org/tools/fonts/specifically in the example about Yoram Gnat's Hebrew Paleo Qumran.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#13 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 04:19 PM

I wonder what the chance is that the various proto-fonts have the same character mapping? Sure would make everything easier.

 

Hi,

 

All Unicode Proto/Paleo consonants have the same values; the Unicode values for the final forms ך ם ן ף ץ are used for כ מ נ פ צ in initial and medial positions.

 

Attached File  Unicode Proto,Paleo Hebrew.PNG   62.66KB   1 downloads

 

All you have to do is select a Unicode Hebrew consonantal text, change to a Proto/Paleo font, and clean up, mark, edit, etc. But it is very tedious. 

 

 

Hmmm...., just dreaming here, but it seems to me that the following workflow could produce such a text . . . 

 

I already do something similar, the details don't matter. But my dream is for a Paleo-Hebrew program.  B)

 

Regards,

 

Michel


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#14 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 04:36 PM

Ok so what I did earlier cannot be that far off. Cool.

It should be possible to take the Tanakh consonantal text and create a full user bible from it via scripting. I looked this up but the information is on the other machine. It's the same text as the pointed but without the pointing. It would in theory also be possible to do the begedkefat substitutions above in a script and create something compatible with paleo fonts.

 

I know it's not a Paleo Hebrew program but ....

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
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Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

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#15 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 11:48 AM

 

I know it's not a Paleo Hebrew program but ....

 

 

Hi Daniel,

 

The farther back in time you went, the more you'd need the programming features I mentioned; that's why my dream is for a program.

 

Here is an example from Gen 1:1-5 in Proto-Canaanitic, say 12th century BCE. (Btw, the exercise would be a useful one even for those who don't believe there are parts that old, just to teach early orthography). I did take out vowel letters and the final forms (and used the Unicode values for the unshifted initial and medial forms for convenience), and used הוה for היה . I also used a vertical stroke as a word divider.

 

Attached File  Gen 1,1-5, Proto-Canaanitic.PNG   163.36KB   1 downloads

 

But here's where the programming would enter. Not all would agree with what I've done so far, so they'd like to change it. (It's even a work in progress for me. I would have to do a lot of research on early Hebrew orthography to tackle the parts of the Bible that some date conservatively.) To get a sense of what it might have actually looked like, the text may have been written boustrophedon - that is, first line right to left, followed by next line left to right, next right to left, etc. It would be very tedious for someone to have to do this manually. So, a program where one could select text and ask to reverse the order would be wonderful. Then we would need the ability to change the direction of single consonants, and rotate them.

 

These programming abilities, besides the ones I mentioned above, would allow a scholar to test many combinations, which could lead to new discoveries. These abilities would also be needed for the history of the text under investigation. I did a paper on the history of one Bible verse as it would have appeared every century from the 12th century BCE to now. Of course there were some gaps, but what a learning experience it was re text transmission, the science of textual criticism, and much, much more. My point is, that we could program the history of the text, and scholars/readers could make as many individual versions as they like.

 

I guess I'm hoping that some programmer at Acc would be intrigued by the sheer challenge of such a program, and would secretly start working on it for the pure joy of the programming challenge. B)

 

Anyways, regards,

 

Michel

 

Edit: FWIW, JSesh is an open source program at http://jsesh.qenherkhopeshef.org/ that can do much of this for hieroglyphs.


Edited by Michel Gilbert, 07 November 2015 - 12:32 PM.

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#16 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 12:57 AM

Hi Michel,

 

  I checked out the Unicode support for boustrophedon text. Alas the standard doesn't seem to support full paragraphs of boustrophedon text. Rather it expects that software will use hard line breaks and switch direction explicitly for each line. That said doesn't boustrophedon text also flip the letters ? If so that would be a bit problematic without glyphs for the reversed letters or a renderer that could reverse them.

 

  Certainly no small challenge to get it all working.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#17 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 07:45 PM

That said doesn't boustrophedon text also flip the letters ? 

 

Hi Daniel,

 

Yes. Cross says, "During the pictographic stage there was little difficulty in giving letters their proper stance (the signs faced away from the direction of the writing). Stances could be changed according to the direction of writing without confusion" (Cross, Frank Moore. "Early Alphabetic Scripts," 104).

 

 

While programming for boustrophedon and letter stance/rotation is important for the 12th century, it is even more so for the 11th. "Both the developing linear letter-forms and the persistence of multi-directional writing caused uncertainty in the stance of the letters. With the development of linear forms, the 'proper' stance could easily be forgotten. In fact, characteristic of the 11th century script is confusion of right-to-left and left-to-right stances " (Ibid.).

He also says, "The 11th century is transitional in the styles of writing: (1) the script evolved from pictographic forms to linear forms in the course of the century, and (2) the direction of writing was standardized as the century passed. At the beginning of the century vertical, dextrograde, sinistrograde, and boustrophedon modes of writing were still in use. By century's end one direction of writing had become standard. All 10th-century inscriptions extant are inscribed from right to left" (Ibid, 101.)

 

It is this type of Paleo-Hebrew program that I'm interested in - one that could manipulate 12th and 11th century reconstructions. If it could handle these texts/reconstructions, it could handle any of the subsequent ones.

 

It would be quite the programming challenge (I haven't even mentioned vertical direction).  :rolleyes: 

 

Regards,

 

Michel


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#18 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 08:54 PM

I must look up that book.

On cursive I was reading bits on Unicode a while back and ran across vertical cursive - a Mongolian script. If you need that sort of thing for your tool it is now getting seriously specialized, if it wasn't already.

 

I was wondering the letter flipping couldn't be done by an alternative set of glyphs like bold and italic in a font. Hmmm.... That would make the coding a matter of styling the text at the right points.

 

I am thinking too much about this :)

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

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#19 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 09:20 PM

I must look up that book.

 

Cross, Frank Moore.  "Early Alphabetic Scripts."  In Symposia Celebrating the Seventy-Fifth Anniversary of the Founding of the American Schools of Oriental Research (1900-1975), ed. Frank Moore Cross.  Cambridge, MA: American Schools of Oriental Research, 1979.


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#20 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 09:58 PM

Thank you.

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1




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