jdblount Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Hello, I'm a new new Mac and new Accordance user, and I'm having trouble copying and pasting Hebrew and Greek text into Word in a functional font. For instance, when I copy this in Accordance: I get this in Word: By the way, the Word window is showing Calibri as the default font, but it actually registers the text as Arial. Greek shows up as just symbols. Can anyone give me a suggestion on how to fix this so that I get the same Accordance font in Word? Thanks! Josh Edited October 12, 2015 by jdblount Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Bennett Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Hi Josh, there are a few things at play here. First off, check out our Help section on Exporting Greek and Hebrew <file:///Applications/Accordance.app/Contents/Resources/Accordance%20Help/Default.htm#topics/04_gswa/greek_heb_exp_opts.htm>. This will help you get things set to export correctly, and allow you to specify the font that you want. But note, the exact fonts used in-app within Accordance are not available for Unicode Greek/Hebrew outside of Accordance. But there are several good (free) font choices available. For an all around font, I recommend SBL BibLit (it covers all the major languages used in Biblical Studies). Other choices are Cardo, and native on Mac systems is New Peninim MT (which looks good for Hebrew). Next, using Word for Hebrew is not very reliable. Historically, it's been horrible actually. But, as of the latest version it is much better. And, I was surprised to see that exporting a paragraph of Hebrew actually rendered RTL, and wrapped correctly. But as you see in the shot the vowel positioning is not very good. Other choices for apps that handle Hebrew very well are Nisus Writer Pro, and Mellel. I hope this helps… [edit: sorry, I'm having issues getting our forum software to recognize a file link to open the Help section, but if you copy/paste that file:/// link into a Web browser window it works] Edited October 12, 2015 by Rick Bennett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdblount Posted October 12, 2015 Author Share Posted October 12, 2015 Thanks Rick! That did the trick. I see what you mean about Hebrew in Word - but for now, for basic work I think this will set me up. Thanks again! Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Bennett Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Thanks Rick! That did the trick. I see what you mean about Hebrew in Word - but for now, for basic work I think this will set me up. Thanks again! Josh Happy to help; feel free to post questions at any time here on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanguageStudent Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I just did a clean install of my OSX operating system. After reinstalling MS Word and Accordance, original language fonts no longer copy and paste properly (see attached file). In the font drop down menu, Word names Helena and Yehudit in Greek or Hebrew, letter not English ones. And once pasted, calls the resultant text Courier New. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thx! Greek.Hebrew Examples.tiff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen Brown Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 We recommend using Unicode export which is now supported better by Word on Mac. You should also be using the latest versions of Accordance and Word. Unicode has the huge advantage that the text remains in the correct characters whatever font you use, on whatever computer system or mobile device. You may need to install a font for the rarer languages like Syriac, but Greek and Hebrew are supported across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farcas Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Unicode is the way. SBL Hebrew or SBL BibLit for a font does better than Times New Roman. For Mac users, Mellel is by far superior to anything else. I highly recommend it for any serious academic projects, especially when using RTL. That said, if I could ask a related question... My settings in Accordance are set to unicode export Hebrew SBL BibLit. But when it gets pasted in Mellel, I get a different font. Usually it is some kind of Helvetica and always very large. This sounds similar to the above problem in Mac Word, except in Mellel, which is the last place I'd expect it. Perhaps its a more general problem...? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Brown Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Farcas, I'm not a Mellel expert, but I've seen this issue before with them. First, confirm that Accordance is properly using SBL BibLit - does it paste into TextEdit as that font? If so, it is likely a Mellel issue. I think it is possible you set up the paragraph style to force the Helvetica font, so you'll need to modify it. This issue came up with a user at SBL, but I quickly handed it to a Mellel expert, so I don't recall all of the solution details! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Bennett Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Just ran a few test cases, here's what I'm seeing with my Accordance prefs set to export Hebrew to SBL BibLit: Mellel: Standard copy [cmd-c] from Accord, standard paste [cmd-v] renders Hebrew in Helvetica New (standard font in Mellel is Times New Roman) and in a font size 60 (relative to the size of my Hebrew displayed in Accord). Copy [cmd-c] from Accord, paste as plain text [cmd-shft-opt v] matches style in Mellel, Times New Roman 12 in this case. Copy as citation from Accord, paste [cmd-v], Hebrew is font size 18 Helvetica (still no SBL BibLit). Nisus Writer Pro: copy [cmd-c], paste [cmd-v] renders Hebrew in SBL BibLit font size 60 (matching relative display size in Accordance). Copy as citation, paste [cmd-v] renders Hebrew in SBL BibLit font size 18 (expected behavior). I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farcas Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Rick, Thanks for that. I use paste as plain text [cmd-shft-opt v] a lot. But the problem is when I have a search and I want to keep those Red HITS when I bring them over. So I can't paste as plain text [cmd-shft-opt v]. I've tried all kinds of work arounds but they're more work than it seems should be necessary given my preferences are set to export in unicode in using a particular font and size. With Nisus, same thing. I have set the font size and font, but as you can see: the size matches the size in the Accordance window. The way I read the preferences, this seems like a bug. If not, it should be noted as feature request. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Bennett Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Rick, Thanks for that. I use paste as plain text [cmd-shft-opt v] a lot. But the problem is when I have a search and I want to keep those Red HITS when I bring them over. So I can't paste as plain text [cmd-shft-opt v]. I've tried all kinds of work arounds but they're more work than it seems should be necessary given my preferences are set to export in unicode in using a particular font and size. With Nisus, same thing. I have set the font size and font, but as you can see: the size matches the size in the Accordance window. The way I read the preferences, this seems like a bug. If not, it should be noted as feature request. Thanks! I do agree that our developers should look more into this. But, regarding Mellel, it also appears they are parsing the RTF flavor differently from the pasteboard. So, I am not sure if we can fully account for this on our end. Here's the best workaround I found that should account for all your needs: 1. Use Nisus Writer Pro; it seems to handle our RTF flavor/export the best 2. In your 'Export' preferences uncheck 'Use default font color' (this will retain your desired search hit color). 3. Decrease the font display size to your desired target font in Nisus. 4. Use a standard copy [cmd-c], or copy as no superscripts [opt-cmd-c]. I hope this helps for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael P Finkelstein Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 This a sincere question, so please delay your judgment (pretend your are reading a german sentence and are awaiting the verb, OK?). Could a forum topic be created entitled "Work Arounds." The reason I ask is because often times a work-around is suggested as a solution to legitimate concerns. Each time someone uses the term workaround (especially from an Accordance staff person) the topic would be cross listed. It could save a lot of time for those of us who search these forums for resolution to problems. (here is your verb) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Bennett Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 This a sincere question, so please delay your judgment (pretend your are reading a german sentence and are awaiting the verb, OK?). Could a forum topic be created entitled "Work Arounds." The reason I ask is because often times a work-around is suggested as a solution to legitimate concerns. Each time someone uses the term workaround (especially from an Accordance staff person) the topic would be cross listed. It could save a lot of time for those of us who search these forums for resolution to problems. (here is your verb) I could see value in that. But, I do want to clarify that I (and often others) do not intend 'workarounds' to be solutions to legitimate problems. I think there are some issues here that need to be looked at. Until that can happen, my suggestion was intended as a temporary means to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Hi Michael, I'm not sure if you posted on this topic because you are interested in/frustrated with Hebrew word processing. I also see you have platform: none listed, so I'm not sure if this suggestion would help you. But, it might help others at least. The best way to copy and paste Hebrew, and type it with rtl justification, is MS Word in Windows. Since I got a Mac, albeit an old 32 bit machine that can't run anything that requires 10.7 or later, I decided that Hebrew and rtl word processing isn't worth the hassle. If I ever get a newer Mac, I would run Windows in a VM just for Hebrew word processing. I know that some Mac users on this Forum balk at this suggestion. But it was always the one thing that made me choose Windows over Mac. Office XP solved the rtl issue in 2001 except for a problem with ֹ in Times New Roman. Office 2003 solved that problem. Hebrew from Acc even pastes perfectly into Office 2007 on my Mac running in Wine. It would be the perfect solution for my old Mac, except I can't use the system HE keyboard in Wine. But, I can copy and paste Hebrew from any program into it. Word for Windows seems to render Unicode Hebrew from any program and platform correctly - at least in the programs I use, and I use quite a lot of them. Also, Dr. Holmstedt said Libre Office handles Hebrew perfectly on a Mac, although I can't test it on 10.7 or later, and few talk about it in general on the Forums. Regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael P Finkelstein Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Mellel works just fine for me, thanks. I compose Hebrew texts in it all the time, and when it comes to pasting items I have tried acc. The best is to use MG Keter or Bar Ilan since it gets Hebrew versification correct and acc does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Hi again, I know Mellel works well, and integrates with some programs/websites. I was talking about the best way to integrate an entire work flow into a single word processor. I know I can do it in Windows. I copied and pasted this from Acc into Word: Since I'm considering buying a newer Mac, and my trial of Mellel already expired (I wish they would take the lead from other companies and allow 15 or 30 non-contiguous days), would you post a screenshot of the same from Acc into Mellel, so I can see what you mean? Thanks. Regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael P Finkelstein Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) When a publisher does not specify file type, I use Mellel and have no problems. When a publisher specifies another file type, I use that file type. So, your desire for a single word-processor is probably overlooking the matrix of personal and business decisions of publishers (and most require word because of its XML structure and parasitic relationship with Adobe InDesign/Quark). Edited December 17, 2015 by Michael P Finkelstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Hi again, I'm not trying to change your mind about Mellel. I would like to switch to Mac, but from my experience and reading these Forums for the past two years, there seems to be lots of problems copying and pasting Hebrew between programs. Your screenshot would just confirm this in my mind. My desire for a single word processor is for my personal workflow, which requires integration between programs and quick language/font switching (a macro for one click for Middle Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, etc.). I have sent, and can easily send whatever a publisher desires. Regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farcas Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Farcas, I'm not a Mellel expert, but I've seen this issue before with them. First, confirm that Accordance is properly using SBL BibLit - does it paste into TextEdit as that font? If so, it is likely a Mellel issue. I think it is possible you set up the paragraph style to force the Helvetica font, so you'll need to modify it. This issue came up with a user at SBL, but I quickly handed it to a Mellel expert, so I don't recall all of the solution details! Joel - sorry didn't see this till now... So I tried the copy and paste into textedit and I got SBL BibLit but the font was still huge (as it is was in my text display). When I size down the font in Accordance in the text display I get a smaller font size in the paste. So it is something with Mellel. If you come across a solution let me know. Support and forums are behind over there. I do agree that our developers should look more into this. But, regarding Mellel, it also appears they are parsing the RTF flavor differently from the pasteboard. So, I am not sure if we can fully account for this on our end. Here's the best workaround I found that should account for all your needs: 1. Use Nisus Writer Pro; it seems to handle our RTF flavor/export the best 2. In your 'Export' preferences uncheck 'Use default font color' (this will retain your desired search hit color). 3. Decrease the font display size to your desired target font in Nisus. 4. Use a standard copy [cmd-c], or copy as no superscripts [opt-cmd-c]. I hope this helps for now. Rick - thanks. I'll touch base with Mellel. I definitely think there is some setting that can be switched. Helvetica should not be default. Maybe it has something to do with the template. Thanks for the suggestions. I prefer to stay in Mellel though so I made up a find and replace set that fixes it to my styles. Thanks all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pntucker Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Hello, I'm joining this conversation about 3 years later, and it may be discussed on some other thread. I have been using Mellel for Hebrew manuscripts up until now, but now publisher wants a manuscript in MSWord and I have a Mac. Im trying to copy and paste SBL text into MSWord, but the vowels are slightly misaligned. Any advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen Brown Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 You can try using the new Accordance font if they are not insisting on SBL fonts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.D. Riddle Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 In Mellel, you can File > Export > Word Format. What happens when you do that? If it works correctly, you could do your work in Mellel and then send the publisher an exported Word doc. A.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 I have been using Mellel for Hebrew manuscripts up until now, but now publisher wants a manuscript in MSWord and I have a Mac. Im trying to copy and paste SBL text into MSWord, but the vowels are slightly misaligned. Any advice? Hi, At first glance, SBL Hebrew in Word and Mellel on my Mac look exactly the same. Word Version 16.15, Mellel 4.1.3b2, High Sierra 10.13.6. Regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) I see I forgot to adjust the line spacing on the Word example, but if you do, the bottom dots of shewas, etc. fully appear. Regards, Michel Edited October 3, 2018 by Michel Gilbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pntucker Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Hello, thanks for the replies. Helen: it has to be SBL font; A.D., exporting from Mellel to Word messes it up. Michel: yours looks different from mine. My MSWord is 15.22 version, I'm currently trying to update it. Perhaps that is the issue; I will see how that works. Thank you, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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