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#1 rwrobinson88

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 06:57 AM

So, I'm trying to understand how to look at a syntax module and create searchs from the top down.

 

I'm in Romans 8:10. I've created a Range of just Romans 8:10. I want to see if there are other places were the syntax is similar.

 

So we have an independant clause (marked with the N). Then the next level is a Predicate phrase (marked with P). The next level is a adjunct phrase (I think it's a phrase...still not sure how to determine whether it's an adjunct phrase or clause sometimes) (marked with A).

 

I'll show what I've created thus far:

 

Attached File  Capture.PNG   399.75KB   0 downloads

 

I ran the search with this, εἰ is highlighted along with διὰ ἁμαρτίαν and διὰ δικαιοσύην. I see at the lower level this search is correct.

 

The issue I'm seeing (or at least I don't understand) is why Χριστὸς (null) ὲν ὑμῖν isn't highlighted or coming up?

 

I was ultimately trying to search to see if there was any similar structures to this that have Χριστὸς as the subject as this case. But, this search hasn't been working on this as I was hoping.

 

Some help here would be great. Thanks!



#2 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 09:48 AM

If you increase the depth on the Independent clause to say 3 you will pick it up. I think it's just the depth of the structure in this case which may be throwing that hit out.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

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#3 rwrobinson88

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 10:19 AM

Not working that way for me. When I switch the independent to 3 deep then the only phrase highlighted is ὲν ὑμῖν. 



#4 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 10:26 AM

Ok that's what happens for me too.

 

The Adjunct phrase under the predicate phrase is εν υμιν so that seemed correct. Were you expecting to see the entire Χριστὸς (null) ὲν ὑμῖν highlighted ? Is that the problem ?

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/


Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#5 rwrobinson88

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 10:27 AM

Correct. Look between the P (Predicate) and the L (subordinate clause). It has the whole phrase as a adjunct. 



#6 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 10:40 AM

Ok I see now - you are looking to find the adjunct and predicate phrase higher in the syntax tree. I'll have to think about it more or perhaps Marco can suggest something.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/


Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#7 rwrobinson88

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 11:21 AM

You got it! Let me know if you can figure it out.

 

Thanks!



#8 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 12:37 PM

So we have an independant clause (marked with the N). Then the next level is a Predicate phrase (marked with P). The next level is a adjunct phrase (I think it's a phrase...still not sure how to determine whether it's an adjunct phrase or clause sometimes) (marked with A).

 

 

We have N, so an independent Clause, then we have P, so a Predicate.

 

 

Then I originally, I wrote in this post:

 

Not necessarily a Predicate phrase: a Predicate phrase would be formed of a Predicate plus a non-verbal cluster.

Then an Adjunct Clause follows.

 

 

This was in part misleading on my part, and in part wrong. In abstract, if the Predicate had no complements or adjuncts whatsoever (and in this part my statement was misleading), we may search for a Predicate alone, or we may search for a Predicate Phrase (and in this part my statement was wrong).

 

Here we have an Independent Clause, then a Predicate Phrase. Then there is an Adjunct Clause, then the Predicate, then more Adjunct Phrases. So, the Adjunct Clause  + the Predicate ( + whatever item is connected to the predicate) make a Predicate Phrase.

 

Actually, the point of my post was to distinguish between Adjunct Phrase and Adjunct Clause, as an aswer to what you wrote:

 

 

 

The next level is a adjunct phrase (I think it's a phrase...still not sure how to determine whether it's an adjunct phrase or clause sometimes) (marked with A).

 

To this I answered:

Χριστός is in an Adjunct Clause, not in an Adjunct Phrase. You can see that because A is immediately followed by L, that is, Adjunct Clause, A L.

 

This is the part I stand by.

 

What I hadn't got is that you were aiming at reconstructing in a search the structure of the whole sentence.


Edited by Marco V. Fabbri, 25 November 2015 - 08:25 AM.

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#9 rwrobinson88

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 01:15 PM

So, are you saying that this isn't a predicate phrase? If you could try this search and show it, that would be helpful. 

 

There isn't a way to search a simple predicate and then an adjunct clause under that. So, it seems that it would have to be a predicate phrase. But, When I search:

 

Independent

predicate phrase

adjunct clause

 

It doesn't come back as hitting this in Romans 8:10.



#10 rwrobinson88

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 06:44 PM

Has no one else bummed into this being an issue? Or has no one else tried to do searches like this?



#11 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 07:00 PM

Because you've been reading what we've been discussing on the Hebrew syntax, you might need to keep in my that some of the principles used in the Hebrew database are not shared with the Greek database. What you've describe above, that is, that all predicates reside within a predicate phrase, is how we constructed the Hebrew system. But from Marco's comments, the Greek differs.

 

Just a thought to help you avoid frustration.


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#12 rwrobinson88

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 07:11 PM

Yeah. I'm waiting to see how he responds to my questions after that statement of his. It doesn't make much sense to me. And construct doesn't work to that way (simple predicate --> adjunct dependent clause) so that would need to fixed by accordance if that database is set up that way (which I'd like to hear the logic behind setting it up that way).

 

Thanks Dr.!



#13 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 12:52 AM

I've tossed a few questions on this verse into a new topic : http://www.accordanc...some-questions/

 

Hey, after playing with this a goodly bit I noticed something I'd missed and I see it in your images too, rwrobinson88. Your search was for Adjunct Phrase inside Predicate Phrase inside Independent Clause. In this search you get a red line through each Adjunct Phrase. In my results I see a red line through the εί which is the Adjunct Phrase before the enclosed Predicate Clause begins at Χριστος. I tried to zoom in on your image and it is blurry at magnification but it looks like there might be a thin red line there. Do you see it or am I imagining it ?

 

I don't know if this means it found it but only highlighted a portion of the Adjunct Phrase for some reason or not. I speculated in the other post above about what this structure is. Hopefully it will all become clearer soon.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/


Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#14 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 02:38 AM

[deleted post]


Edited by Marco V. Fabbri, 25 November 2015 - 04:29 AM.

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#15 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 03:47 AM

Robert,

 

I thought I needed to reassure you that in the Greek syntax the predicates reside within a predicate phrase, too. 

 

The apparent difference is entirely the result of a misunderstanding in the discussion above. I will re-word my answer, because I now see that it was misleading.

 

At the start, I was trying to make a different point, that is, to distinguish between the Adjunct Clause and the Adjunct Phrase.

 

Because you've been reading what we've been discussing on the Hebrew syntax, you might need to keep in my that some of the principles used in the Hebrew database are not shared with the Greek database. What you've describe above, that is, that all predicates reside within a predicate phrase, is how we constructed the Hebrew system. But from Marco's comments, the Greek differs.

 

Just a thought to help you avoid frustration.


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#16 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 04:27 AM

So, are you saying that this isn't a predicate phrase? If you could try this search and show it, that would be helpful. 

 

There isn't a way to search a simple predicate and then an adjunct clause under that. So, it seems that it would have to be a predicate phrase. But, When I search:

 

Independent

predicate phrase

adjunct clause

 

It doesn't come back as hitting this in Romans 8:10.

Bingo! You are right that this should work, and it doesn't.

 

I may have found a problem in my tagging. Originally, the conjunctions all went outside of the Clauses, as it still happens with coordinating conjunction. Then, it became apparent that subordinating conjunctions should go instead inside the Dependent Clause. Therefore I changed all the tags throughout the database. Here I forgot to move the conjunction εἰ inside the adjunct Clause.It is still outside of it. I need to correct this, then make some checks. Then I will get back to you. Please allow for some time for me to answer, as our time zones are very different.


Edited by Marco V. Fabbri, 25 November 2015 - 04:32 AM.

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#17 rwrobinson88

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 05:16 AM

Bingo! You are right that this should work, and it doesn't.

 

I may have found a problem in my tagging. Originally, the conjunctions all went outside of the Clauses, as it still happens with coordinating conjunction. Then, it became apparent that subordinating conjunctions should go instead inside the Dependent Clause. Therefore I changed all the tags throughout the database. Here I forgot to move the conjunction εἰ inside the adjunct Clause.It is still outside of it. I need to correct this, then make some checks. Then I will get back to you. Please allow for some time for me to answer, as our time zones are very different.

 

Awesome. Thank you.

 

Yes, please let me know the result and if things are to be fixed in a future update. Thank you!



#18 rwrobinson88

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 05:25 AM

I've tossed a few questions on this verse into a new topic : http://www.accordanc...some-questions/

 

Hey, after playing with this a goodly bit I noticed something I'd missed and I see it in your images too, rwrobinson88. Your search was for Adjunct Phrase inside Predicate Phrase inside Independent Clause. In this search you get a red line through each Adjunct Phrase. In my results I see a red line through the εί which is the Adjunct Phrase before the enclosed Predicate Clause begins at Χριστος. I tried to zoom in on your image and it is blurry at magnification but it looks like there might be a thin red line there. Do you see it or am I imagining it ?

 

I don't know if this means it found it but only highlighted a portion of the Adjunct Phrase for some reason or not. I speculated in the other post above about what this structure is. Hopefully it will all become clearer soon.

 

Thx

D

 

To answer your question, yes, εί is highlighted. But, it looks like Marco has seen there is an issue here and checking into it. ^

 

Thanks for your help in trying to figure this thing out Daniel



#19 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 08:35 AM

So, are you saying that this isn't a predicate phrase? If you could try this search and show it, that would be helpful. 

 

There isn't a way to search a simple predicate and then an adjunct clause under that. So, it seems that it would have to be a predicate phrase. But, When I search:

 

Independent

predicate phrase

adjunct clause

 

It doesn't come back as hitting this in Romans 8:10.

 

I will keep trying to solve this, but, at this point, it seems that there is an bug, because the search is correct, and it actually hits a similar Adjunct clause at the beginning of Romans 8:11.


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#20 rwrobinson88

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 10:26 AM

Would this have to be something that one of the guys at Accordance has to fix? 






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