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#21 Michael Miles

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 09:09 PM

I need to do some formatting changes to what is here in the attachment; a barely started toss.  I have no workflow.  A log rolled out of the fireplace.  The cat is yelling on the porch.  After I take care of a few things here, I'll be about it again.  I seem to be skipping over something in BBEdit or I need to find a different way to yank the text to pull it in.

 

Michael

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#22 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 10:32 PM

Hey Michael,

 

  Had a quick look at your prototype. If you have a look at "Digging Deeper > Working with User Tools > Importing to a User Tool > HTML Import to a User Tool" in the doc. you'll see what HTML tags - I'm assuming you're doing an HTML import - are recognized. It will help you get the tool browser (table of contents) working if you have h* tags in the right places as headings will be treated as TOC entries. I don't know if you have hard tabs in it or not but it looks like some indentations in the last page suggest that you might.

 

  Thanx for working on this one. Looks useful.

 

Thx

D


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Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i7 Kabylake
      12GB RAM                                16GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Home x64

 

 


#23 Michael Miles

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 10:52 PM

Hey Michael,

 

  Had a quick look at your prototype. If you have a look at "Digging Deeper > Working with User Tools > Importing to a User Tool > HTML Import to a User Tool" in the doc. you'll see what HTML tags - I'm assuming you're doing an HTML import - are recognized. It will help you get the tool browser (table of contents) working if you have h* tags in the right places as headings will be treated as TOC entries. I don't know if you have hard tabs in it or not but it looks like some indentations in the last page suggest that you might.

 

  Thanx for working on this one. Looks useful.

 

Thx

D

Hi Daniel,

 

Thank you for the tips.  I took the html files that I extracted from the .epub and opened them in BBedit.  I stripped all of the formatting out and obliterated the double spaces that were left as remnants of the OCR process.  The only formatting that I *think* is in that sample are multiple spaces in front of the table of contents entries and 4 spaces between the entry and the page number reference.  I do not know why long strings that wrap in the User Notes editor on the Mac end up jumping like 20 spaces to the right instead of justifying all of the way to the left.  I just downloaded this sample to the new Win10 Boot Camp machine to see what things look like under Windows.  I'm only stumped on that line wrap on the mac and how it retains when I view it on the PC.

 

Maybe I'll take a hex/disk editor to a test file and see if something is amiss.  Perhaps my encoding is not correct and there are characters that are causing this.  I have one more day off before I have to go back to work.  Maybe I can wrangle it by then.  I'm actually up into the mid-twenties on the page content on the Mac.  I still need to do that TOC you were pointing me to and a bunch of links.  This is actually fun.  By the time I get done with this, I'll probably have this grammar memorized.  :)

 

I wonder if Accordance will parse more html/css than they attest to in the Help docs for these User Tools?

 

This Mac running Windows is an odd beast.  I'm stumbling over the key sequences a lot.  It runs very well though and I'm actually quite impressed with it thus far.

 

Back to work on this after I sit in front of the vaporizer for a spell.

 

Cheers and thanks again,

Michael

 

 

EDIT** turned right when I meant to turn left.  And the dish ran away with the spoon...


Edited by Michael Miles, 30 November 2015 - 10:56 PM.


#24 Michael Miles

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 10:59 PM

Hi Daniel,

 

Thank you for the tips.  I took the html files that I extracted from the .epub and opened them in BBedit.  I stripped all of the formatting out and obliterated the double spaces that were left as remnants of the OCR process.  The only formatting that I *think* is in that sample are multiple spaces in front of the table of contents entries and 4 spaces between the entry and the page number reference.  I do not know why long strings that wrap in the User Notes editor on the Mac end up jumping like 20 spaces to the right instead of justifying all of the way to the left.  I just downloaded this sample to the new Win10 Boot Camp machine to see what things look like under Windows.  I'm only stumped on that line wrap on the mac and how it retains when I view it on the PC.

 

Maybe I'll take a hex/disk editor to a test file and see if something is amiss.  Perhaps my encoding is not correct and there are characters that are causing this.  I have one more day off before I have to go back to work.  Maybe I can wrangle it by then.  I'm actually up into the mid-twenties on the page content on the Mac.  I still need to do that TOC you were pointing me to and a bunch of links.  This is actually fun.  By the time I get done with this, I'll probably have this grammar memorized.  :)

 

I wonder if Accordance will parse more html/css than they attest to in the Help docs for these User Tools?

 

This Mac running Windows is an odd beast.  I'm stumbling over the key sequences a lot.  It runs very well though and I'm actually quite impressed with it thus far.

 

Back to work on this after I sit in front of the vaporizer for a spell.

 

Cheers and thanks again,

Michael

 

 

EDIT** turned right when I meant to turn left.  And the dish ran away with the spoon...

 

Yeah, maybe taking the stripped plain text and formatting it in html and then importing it will yield better results than just dumping plain text into the User Note editor and beating it into shape that way.



#25 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 11:04 PM

Ah yeah well that was what I was about to suggest. The HTML import in Acc ignores tags it doesn't understand, so long as it's basically well-formed. I've been working on another tool and I work on it in LibreOffice and save it to XHTML which Acc is happy to import. The way I would start here is to see how Acc treats the EPUB HTML itself first and see if it chokes. It might be better than you think. And then if it doesn't work so well I would start editing.

 

Thx

D


Edited by Daniel Semler, 30 November 2015 - 11:05 PM.

Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i7 Kabylake
      12GB RAM                                16GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Home x64

 

 


#26 Michael Miles

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 12:11 PM

Yeah, well... I'm just going to leave this right over here and let it ferment for a while.  The intermittent indented wrapping that is taking place is going to  give my ticker a bit more than an "Oh, Snap!" moment. real. soon. now.   :)
 
Text will just start wrapping all wonky in the User Tool Editor:
Attached File  User Tool Editor View.png   188.31KB   0 downloads
 
And then on top of that, even if it doesn't wrap poorly in the User Tool Editor, the result in the User Tool may wrap badly anyway:
Attached File  User Tool View.png   165.99KB   0 downloads
 
Those two attached graphics were captured with both the Editor and the Actual User Tool both in the same state (just having been saved).
 
From what I'm hearing over >>> yonder, it looks like I can attempt to fist mangle this all day and it may not get any better.  I'm not putting up a white flag.  I'm just parking this here until I either get a clue on how to alleviate this or, if it is a bug, it gets fixed.

 

Now, back to my unfrustrated but still hacking cough and runny nose.

 

It's a good day though - my gal made me steak and eggs for breakfast.  I turned 60 today.   :)

 

I have a suggestion.  Maybe Accordance could just ditch the User Tool Editor and only allow tagged HTML or even complete epub files to be imported.  Maybe even parse in PDF files (both text and/or graphics).  If you want to keep the editor, maybe we need to get the bug fixed that I understand has been in place for a while.  I'd also like the editor to make image maps.  I'm still sick, so I'll just keep rambling on here for a while.  It's not like anyone is going to read this.  How about User Tool Exports - where you can spit out the HTML that you imported?  Ok, break time.

 

Cheers,

Michael

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#27 Julia Falling

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 01:03 PM

For anyone who wants to actually sit down and work through a book that teaches English grammar and diagramming at the same time I can recommend Grammar by Diagram by Cindy L. Vitto.  It's workbook style, but I haven't written in mine – I use separate paper – so that someone else can use it after me. It is very well written, has an answer key and an index.  Yes, they killed some trees.  Still, very good and very helpful.  What you learn can easily be applied to Greek and, I assume, Hebrew (only have a smattering of that).  My copy came from Amazon – I asked for it for Christmas one year, confirming my family's opinion that at least one of our number is very strange.


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#28 Fabian

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 03:22 PM

A better .docx which I had created with Abbyy 12.1.4

 

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

 

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Greetings

 

Fabian

 

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bug, which I describe.

 

Mac Air (13-inch, Mid 2013)

1,3 GHz Intel Core i5

4GB Ram

Next time: I'll buy only one with SuperRetina OLED, and hopefully without a glossy screen. A faster CPU and more RAM.

 

macOS High Sierra 10.13.2

Accordance 12.1.5 and waiting on 13 (on iPad Pro with 3D touch)

 

iPhone X 256GB

iOS 11.2.1

Accordance Mobile 2.5.6.8946


#29 Michael Miles

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 03:48 PM

For anyone who wants to actually sit down and work through a book that teaches English grammar and diagramming at the same time I can recommend Grammar by Diagram by Cindy L. Vitto.  It's workbook style, but I haven't written in mine – I use separate paper – so that someone else can use it after me. It is very well written, has an answer key and an index.  Yes, they killed some trees.  Still, very good and very helpful.  What you learn can easily be applied to Greek and, I assume, Hebrew (only have a smattering of that).  My copy came from Amazon – I asked for it for Christmas one year, confirming my family's opinion that at least one of our number is very strange.

Thank you very much for sharing your findings regarding English Grammar resources.  I just now went over to amazon.com and wishlisted this resource.  I do not mind killing trees.  My great, great, great, great, great grandfather didn't mind either.  :)

 

I would purchase it now, but I'd be running the risk of having to use the cat as a shield from my girlfriend - so next year it is.



#30 Michael Miles

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 03:58 PM

A better .docx which I had created with Abbyy 12.1.4

 

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

Thank you very much, Fabian.  I can refer to this Word document to help me out.  I'm not going to beat on importing the text or hand typing the text into the User Tool editor until it is working properly or someone has pointed out to me where I turned wrong in my efforts so that I can work on this without the goofy wrap issues.

 

If this was taking place in Microsoft Word, I bet someone would be working to fix it.  Maybe even two people.   :)



#31 Fabian

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 04:35 PM

Hello Michael

 

I personally found it till 11.0.8 easier to prepare the files in Word and then convert it with Word16! as "Webpage, filtered" to an HTML and then I do the rest in Accordance. But maybe since 11.1.1 it is much easier than before. To work in the User Tool direct.

 

Tables are not supported now, so you have to work with tab.

 

Unfortunately at the moment even colors from the Word file are found in the User Tool, they will be all lost. 

 

The User Tool is much better, than before but it need much improvements till I can say "well done Accordance"

 

This is why I had upload the .docx file 

 

But if you prefer another its easy to make another output from Abbyy.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


Edited by Fabian, 01 December 2015 - 04:44 PM.

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Greetings

 

Fabian

 

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bug, which I describe.

 

Mac Air (13-inch, Mid 2013)

1,3 GHz Intel Core i5

4GB Ram

Next time: I'll buy only one with SuperRetina OLED, and hopefully without a glossy screen. A faster CPU and more RAM.

 

macOS High Sierra 10.13.2

Accordance 12.1.5 and waiting on 13 (on iPad Pro with 3D touch)

 

iPhone X 256GB

iOS 11.2.1

Accordance Mobile 2.5.6.8946


#32 Michael Miles

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 07:02 PM

Hello Michael

 

I personally found it till 11.0.8 easier to prepare the files in Word and then convert it with Word16! as "Webpage, filtered" to an HTML and then I do the rest in Accordance. But maybe since 11.1.1 it is much easier than before. To work in the User Tool direct.

 

Tables are not supported now, so you have to work with tab.

 

Unfortunately at the moment even colors from the Word file are found in the User Tool, they will be all lost. 

 

The User Tool is much better, than before but it need much improvements till I can say "well done Accordance"

 

This is why I had upload the .docx file 

 

But if you prefer another its easy to make another output from Abbyy.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

 

:) You're a nice guy, Fabian.  I appreciate your help.  I can use the Word file that you shared with us here and after a bit I will purchase the book the Jullie pointed out, as I would benefit from the sentence diagramming aspects as well.

 

I have used a lot of Bible software over the years and Accordance has a user interface that I find to be very well thought out and pleasing.  I like the company and the people that work at Accordance.  That being said, I find that pretty much every Bible software package that I have ever run into or used has major issues with importing user modules.  Some are just buggy.  Some require convoluted hoop-jumping.  Some require expensive proprietary software.  Some store their user files in obscure or antiquated formats and don't upgrade them.  It would be nice if someone actually made the importing of user resources easy and glitch-free.

 

I have a study partner that does not use Accordance.  I would love for this person to have and use it and with the current deal where I could get the starter package for free for this person with a $150 purchase on my part almost makes me want to go out into the yard and dig up the oak barrel full of quarters that I have out there, and use that to buy this person an upgrade to the Original Languages package, leveraging the free starter package into the deal.  I do not like paying the asking price for anything because in my 60 years I have learned that there is generally a lot of wiggle room, so I look for and use bargains.  But my point is that I would want this person to have Accordance so that we could share User Tools and User Notes and if the software facilities that are built in to Accordance for these features do not work, then my reason to make a purchase doesn't work either.

 

Regards,

Michael



#33 David Harris

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 02:30 PM

I'm self-taught at my Hebrew and I have, over the years, had expansive excursions into it mixed with eras of time wherein I am not even remotely "into" it.  My work is so opposite and far removed from any sort of scholarly discipline and the rigors of that work sometimes collectively serve to beat the tar out of my backside, so that I am too worn out to care about Hebrew at all, and am rather focused on Cheetos.  Then I have what might be described as manic episodes in that I am very absorbed, but I find myself re-learning things that I had learned sometimes several times before.  They do come much easier, but my Hebrew suffers from both the fact that I am self-taught without any orchestrated course of study, and then that I also need to go back and re-learn my rules of grammar; both Hebrew and English. I'd be of the mind that my last formal schooling ended long before many of you took your first breaths, and it ended when I finished High School.
 
When inside of Accordance, I find it distracting to have to get out on the internet, with all of the flashy flash advertisements that makes one feel like they are visiting Las Vegas, to go look up what a pronominal suffix is, for example.  I have Hebrew grammars in Accordance (possibly all of them), but it would be very nice to have an English grammar in Accordance, so that my attention might be fixed inside the application and then I could perhaps focus more closely on things.
 
With that long and basically unnecessary preface, I'd like to cast my vote for a simple old-school English grammar to be offered as an Accordance module.  Perhaps I could fabricate one, but I'd much rather just flash my credit card and have one downloaded in an instant.  My girlfriend probably does not share these sentiments, so I'd appreciate it immensely if this were all just between myself and all of you reading this.   :)  If Accordance offered a senior discount *hint *hint then I'd not suffer as much when purchasing resources.  Just saying'.
 
Thank you,
Michael


Michael, et. al.,

I'm not certain if this would be a sufficient for all of your questions on English grammar, but with respect to first understanding grammatical concepts clearly in English so as to understand them correctly in Hebrew, I highly recommend this book by Garry Long: Grammatical Concepts 101 for students of Biblical Hebrew. It is a wonderful book, born out of a realization that students often did not understand a concept in biblical Hebrew Grammar because the students were in need of a strong foundation in general grammatical concepts (English grammar is so often poorly taught, or not taught well or systematically nowadays).

The text is filled with examples, illustrating concepts first in English–to crystallize the idea in the atudent's mind–and then in Hebrew. And it covers LOTS of concepts. After a thorough run through this, most atudents would have little difficullty working theough Waltke & O'Connor, for example. I bought a copy of this book years ago for a reference, and because I thought it would be useful to pull from when teaching. It has been updated in the last 2 years as well...

http://www.amazon.co...biblical hebrew


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#34 Michael P Finkelstein

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 09:12 PM

Just read the language, if you really want to move into a discussion of Hebrew grammar then look at how our Ulplan methods have developed. What you are really discussing here is translation theory—infused with a healthy toxic dose of Chomskyian Linguistics.



#35 Dru Brooke-Taylor

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 01:22 PM

Over here (England) I don't remember being taught English grammar using diagrams. I don't remember meeting them until I saw them in Accordance. We were taught (1950s) English grammar, parts of speech etc, but we also had to learn and understand how to translate between English and a much more synthetic language like Latin. This means understanding grammatical differences which aren't really visible in English like 'how to spot a gerund'.  I'd rather assumed the diagrams had been developed as a useful tool to help native English speakers who had not done Latin understand how a sentence in a synthetic language works.

 

It worked both ways. It also included how to translate between English and languages (like Latin and French) which lack a lot of the tense constructions that the English verb has. 'I am coming to see you tomorrow' does not translate as 'je suis venant à vous voir demain'. 

 

I would have thought one of the text books used now for TEFL teaching might be more useful than a grammar book from 96 years ago.



#36 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 01:31 PM

Hi Dru,  What do you mean by "synthetic" here ?

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i7 Kabylake
      12GB RAM                                16GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Home x64

 

 


#37 Michael Miles

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 09:29 PM

Michael, et. al.,

I'm not certain if this would be a sufficient for all of your questions on English grammar, but with respect to first understanding grammatical concepts clearly in English so as to understand them correctly in Hebrew, I highly recommend this book by Garry Long: Grammatical Concepts 101 for students of Biblical Hebrew. It is a wonderful book, born out of a realization that students often did not understand a concept in biblical Hebrew Grammar because the students were in need of a strong foundation in general grammatical concepts (English grammar is so often poorly taught, or not taught well or systematically nowadays).

The text is filled with examples, illustrating concepts first in English–to crystallize the idea in the atudent's mind–and then in Hebrew. And it covers LOTS of concepts. After a thorough run through this, most atudents would have little difficullty working theough Waltke & O'Connor, for example. I bought a copy of this book years ago for a reference, and because I thought it would be useful to pull from when teaching. It has been updated in the last 2 years as well...

http://www.amazon.co...biblical hebrew

Hi David,

 

Thanks for those tips.  I have Waltke & O'Conner here on the shelf as well as Gary Long's Grammatical Concepts 101.  What I was looking for was an Accordance module that I could refer to that would serve as a quick bit of memory starter fluid without having to leave Accordance.  The library is maybe 15 feet away, but sometimes I get immersed and need to quickly locate an English example.  I'm an old guy and getting out of the chair is like a job, and then dragging my carcass over to the oak shelves kind of breaks up my groove.  Plus, if I get up my wife has a tendency to take advantage of that fact and it might be some time before I get back to my study.  If I go out on the internet, then I sometimes get sidetracked, so I wanted a reference work in Accordance so I could just keep my face inside the software.

 

I'm still not pleased that Accordance has seen fit to not work their way through the problems in the User Tools aspect of the software and I'm of the mind to not purchase any more Accordance resources until that gets fixed. 

 

That being said, I see that Logos offers Gary Long's Grammatical Concepts 101, which would be great to have on the Mac and I can just click over into Logos and get the answer that I need on the grammar.  Problem solved.



#38 Michael Miles

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 09:31 PM

Just read the language, if you really want to move into a discussion of Hebrew grammar then look at how our Ulplan methods have developed. What you are really discussing here is translation theory—infused with a healthy toxic dose of Chomskyian Linguistics.

Hi Michael,

 

Thanks for the tip on Ulplan.  I had not ever heard of it until you pointed it out.



#39 Michael P Finkelstein

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 04:27 AM

No worries—and I think you will see some significant changes in language pedagogy in the coming years. It has not reached the current biblical Hebrew grammars, since most who write these are not paying attention to the field of Second Language Acquisition (SLA). A small group of people at SBL have been working on incorporating a "communicative" approach to language study—a much more productive way to view language (as opposed to Chomskyian Theory). My point with Ulpan is that one enters the Ulpan classroom—it's only Hebrew in Hebrew.



#40 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 09:05 AM

Michael, have you seen the material by Randall Buth (http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/) ? I haven't been able to attend his in person classes though I think they'd be very effective. I am working through his self-study materials which of course have to have some English in them. But the first of those materials in both Greek and Hebrew are picture cards and spoken Greek or Hebrew only.

 

Thx

D


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