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An English Grammar


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#41 Dru Brooke-Taylor

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 11:37 AM

Hi Dru,  What do you mean by "synthetic" here ?

 

Thx

D

Daniel,

 

Technically, "Synthetic" means a language with a "high morpheme-per-word ratio". More generally, it describes a language like Latin where syntax expresses itself by inflecting the word itself, rather than using more words to do this, e.g. amo, amas, amat, English I love, thou lovest, he/she/it loves. In Latin the, o, as and at endings replace, I, thou, he/she/it. Latin is more synthetic than English, but the est and s in that sequence in English are synthetic. The opposite of 'synthetic' is 'analytic'. Very few languages are wholly one or the other.

 

In Latin, the more complex tenses are often formed by yet more changes to the verb, rather than constructions using auxiliaries as in English. Likewise nouns change their endings in circumstances where in English we'd use a preposition.

 

Greek and Hebrew are both more synthetic than English, though English is more synthetic than we sometimes realise. in addition to the example above, take another word from the previous paragraph, 'constructions'. The s inflection makes it plural. The ion inflection makes it a noun.

 

As a digression, although construct  is usually a verb, it exists as a noun with a different meaning from construction. But, and this is feature which is widespread in English but may be linguistically slightly unusual, the stress pattern changes. As a verb, the stress falls on the second syllable. As a noun it falls on the first. There are a number of examples of single syllable words where the weight shifts in a similar way, e.g. calf, calve. 


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#42 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 12:10 PM

Thanx you Dru for the very full answer.

I would have used the term agglutinative. Do you consider the two terms synonymous or is there a difference between inflection in morphology and true agglutination ?

 

I've found it interesting, as you say, how English has traded complex morphology for syntactical structures involving a larger number of words.

 

Thanx again.

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

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#43 Dru Brooke-Taylor

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 12:30 PM

Daniel,

 

I'm not a linguistician, but I'm under the impression that an agglutinative language is a particular type of synthetic language where prefixes, suffixes etc are strung together to make a long composite word, rather than where the root word inflects like Latin, Greek or Hebrew. I have heard that Turkish, Hungarian and Finnish are agglutinative but do not know any of them. I'm not sure it's possible to give an example of agglutination since English is not at agglutinative language.



#44 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 12:35 PM

Thanx Dru. I had been wondering about exactly this distinction. I'm not trained in linguistics and so am rapidly swimming out of my depth but it seemed this distinction could be made. I'll have to read up more on it when I have a minute, but perhaps one of the linguists here will comment.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1


#45 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 08:54 PM

but perhaps one of the linguists here will comment . . . on the term agglutinative

 

some languages prefer to be agglutinative free :)


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#46 Michael Miles

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 09:23 PM

Michael, have you seen the material by Randall Buth (http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/) ? I haven't been able to attend his in person classes though I think they'd be very effective. I am working through his self-study materials which of course have to have some English in them. But the first of those materials in both Greek and Hebrew are picture cards and spoken Greek or Hebrew only.

 

Thx

D

Hi Daniel,

 

I actually have a pile of material here by Randall Buth.  My work life has a distinctive full-time fence around my existence that is hard to break through for long periods.  Even now, as I'm of the mind to begin yet again my Hebrew studies, my employment is morphing into something else that is going to require me to pick up more skill sets.  I'm of the mind to hang with my Hebrew studies this round and ride it out.  In 5 years on the outside I should be all retired with endless days to soak everything up and keep up with my honey-do list as well.  I might even go for daily walks and burn through hearing aid batteries.  I might have to buy a new fishing rod.

 

Thank you for the suggestion.  I should see what new items Randall has.  Right now, I'm reading through about 10 Hebrew grammars, with the one by Ross being my favorite - at least today anyway.  I also just grabbed the Miles Van Pelt Basics of Biblical Hebrew DVD Lectures that I can listen to over and over in zombie mode after my work day has drained the last drop of vitality out of me.  I'm getting tired of getting so far into Hebrew and then letting it all go, only to start it all up again.  I find it fascinating and I know that there are all kinds of interesting aspects of truth in there that I need to be digging out.

 

Cheers,

Michael



#47 Michael Miles

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 09:25 PM

I see that Accordance 11.1.2 has fixed the odd tabs that were being placed into User Tools.  I'll perhaps give this a twirl this weekend.  THANK YOU very much to Accordance for their work on getting this fixed.   :)



#48 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 09:41 PM

Hi Michael,

 

Back to your original post: you wanted to stay in Acc, in your chair, with a century old grammar to help you during this latest manic episode of re-learning English and Hebrew grammar. But, you received a lot of high brow advice (your phrase :) ) that ranged from leaving your chair to sit in an ulpan in Israel, reading modern Second Language Acquisition grammars, and anti-Chompskian sentiments. You have even been subject to agglutination. 

 

Imho, you would be in good company, even scholarly company, if you stayed on your original course. The main point of contention about applying Teaching English as a Foreign/Second/Additional Language principles to biblical Hebrew is whether adults learn languages the same way as children. This Forum is not the place to discuss my opinion on this. But, whether for practical or theoretical reasons, most Hebrew teachers use a combination of traditional and newer methods. Even Holmstedt and Cook’s Biblical Hebrew: An Illustrated Introduction admits “limits to such second-language acquisition approaches in the teaching and learning of ancient, textual corpus-bound languages. As such, there remains a philological realism to our pedagogy coupled with our use of Second Language Acquisition techniques. . . . Beyond this, there is the instructor’s choice: he/she may maintain a text-based atmosphere . . . or a 'conversation'-based atmosphere” (from the Preface, Draft copy 2011).

 

Regards,

 

Michel


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#49 Michael Miles

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 11:09 PM

 

Hi Michael,

 

Back to your original post: you wanted to stay in Acc, in your chair, with a century old grammar to help you during this latest manic episode of re-learning English and Hebrew grammar. But, you received a lot of high brow advice (your phrase :) ) that ranged from leaving your chair to sit in an ulpan in Israel, reading modern Second Language Acquisition grammars, and anti-Chompskian sentiments. You have even been subject to agglutination. 

 

Imho, you would be in good company, even scholarly company, if you stayed on your original course. The main point of contention about applying Teaching English as a Foreign/Second/Additional Language principles to biblical Hebrew is whether adults learn languages the same way as children. This Forum is not the place to discuss my opinion on this. But, whether for practical or theoretical reasons, most Hebrew teachers use a combination of traditional and newer methods. Even Holmstedt and Cook’s Biblical Hebrew: An Illustrated Introduction admits “limits to such second-language acquisition approaches in the teaching and learning of ancient, textual corpus-bound languages. As such, there remains a philological realism to our pedagogy coupled with our use of Second Language Acquisition techniques. . . . Beyond this, there is the instructor’s choice: he/she may maintain a text-based atmosphere . . . or a 'conversation'-based atmosphere” (from the Preface, Draft copy 2011).

 

Regards,

 

Michel

 

Hello Michel,

 

Thanks for your perspective and points on second language acquisition.  I feel that my time would be best spent working on this from a technical perspective and hinging my steps into it on English grammar with a careful eye to where things may take deviations.  My target is to not only be able to read the Old Testament text, but to be able to read it with the Hebraisms and figures of speech fully intact so as to gain the utmost possible potency of what is being expressed.  I also want to be able to press as much as I can out of aspects such as acrostics and the masoretic meanings of such as inverted letters, crowns, odd pointing and accenting, etc.  I have a very strong pull towards this goal and I aim to get there, even if it takes me going down several routes simultaneously.

 

I'm still sporting my cold, and I have shared it with my friends and better acquaintances.  Perhaps by this weekend, which I forsee having off of work, I might be able to at least put into place a pincer movement of study methods that I can use in my workday evening drained states, and then go back and establish a weekend route of heavy lifting that I can carry on.  My leading to do this now is moreso coming from upstairs rather than myself, and with that I hope that the usual extra boost that I get in other things will also apply to my Hebrew studies.  I'm actually curious to see how much extra jet fuel I get to pull this off.   :)






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