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LXX linked to English Bible and Greek Pronunciation

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#1 mleavesley

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 05:55 PM

Quick question...

 

I have the Essentials kit with Rahlfs tagged LXX. But when I open it in parallel with my ESVS or NIV11-GKE and I hover over the Greek word in the LXX it doesn't highlight the corresponding English word in the parallel translation next to it like it does if I'm doing it using my GNT28 to look up something in the NT. Why is that and is there any way I can change it, or do I have to but something else that would have that linking like that? 

 

Also, are there any audio sets that would enable me to just click on a Greek word and listen to its pronunciation? 

 

Thanks,

 

Matt



#2 R. Mansfield

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 09:30 PM

Matt, you're not getting crossover highlighting because the ESVS & NIV11-GKE are tagged to Hebrew Strongs numbers. The Old Testament in both of these translations is based on the Hebrew Masoretic Text, although the footnotes often reference relevant LXX readings as well.

You might be interested in the MT-LXX Interlinear Database:
http://www.accordanc...LXX Interlinear

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#3 mleavesley

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 01:17 PM

Thanks Rick,

 

Would the MT-LXX Interlinear Database actually create those highlights between the LXX and a modern English translation in some way, or just between the LXX and the HMT?

 

Also, any advice on the Greek pronunciation thing?

 

Thanks again,

 

ML



#4 Helen Brown

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 08:23 PM

The Interlinear does only that, it allows you to create an interlinear between the Greek text and those Hebrew and English texts that are tagged with the Hebrew. It does not currently support cross highlighting. As Rick says, no-one has tagged the Greek to the Hebrew directly, nor any translation to the Greek. The latter would require a major expansion of the Key number system to accommodate the Greek words in the LXX that are not found in the NT.


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#5 Michael P Finkelstein

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 10:09 PM

My sense is that Accordance is attempting to do its best with the now outdated methods of inter-translation relationships. While the parallel method was innovative years ago, the sheer ability of XML for displaying inter-translational relationships is far more sophisticated than a simplistic column method (as in Accordance). Logos has the best methods right now for LXX/MT (and related English translation) relationships. However, both are severely lacking because they are not morph tagged. You'll need Bibleworks for morph tagged searches. To put it simply, all the bible software programs are years behind in the sort of features they could offer for LXX studies. But that's likely because LXX studies are on the fringe—and don't rack in the cash like Five Views on Apologetics!



#6 Joel Brown

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 09:44 AM

Michael, I highly recommend you learn more about Accordance's MT-LXX capabilities before making statements such as the above.   Accordance is very capable of doing morph search comparison, showing how the MT are translated, showing how the LXX words are translated, and more.


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#7 Michael P Finkelstein

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 11:46 AM

Sure, let me bring an example to show the complete insufficiency of this system:

 

 

In an HMT text, search [verb qal first] and then try to do the merge command on MT-LXX. You call those results sophisticated? 



#8 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 12:22 PM

Michael, I don't know enough - probably never will - about Hebrew and allied languages for the failings here to be obvious (with the possible exception of my point below), but it might be helpful to more than just me to explain where the deficiencies lie and what exactly you would prefer to see.

 

Joel, I ran Michael's query and noticed an oddity : Why would my merge to MT/LXX highlight nouns ?

Attached File  sc.jpg   93.92KB   0 downloads

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

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#9 Michael P Finkelstein

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 12:45 PM

Daniel, you bring a fair question. The reason being is that there is room for major improvement. I am researcher of these texts and am keenly aware of the deficiencies. Perhaps a research grant might be secured to fix these deficiencies both in terms of their limitations of being in commercial platforms and by not sufficiently addressing the needs of researchers. I have many ideas and they are my ideas. I don't care to divulge them here, but if a critique (which is often hardly ever received by the Accordance folks) can help them refine things, I am willing to do so (you know of James Barr, yes?). James Barr would show the deficiencies of any theoretical system and he hardly ever proposed a remedy. Yet the the value of his critiques are/were helpful. 

 

##Edit

I think the reason you are seeing nouns in the search is because ארץ can be a first person verbal form. In other words, MT-LXX can't specify because the lexemes are not tagged.


Edited by Michael P Finkelstein, 12 December 2015 - 12:53 PM.


#10 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 01:34 PM


##Edit

I think the reason you are seeing nouns in the search is because ארץ can be a first person verbal form. In other words, MT-LXX can't specify because the lexemes are not tagged.

 

I thought about that but didn't do too well proving it until I tried a few other things. I believe this is the culprit :

 

תהלים יח30 כִּֽי־בְ֭ךָ אָרֻ֣ץ גְּד֑וּד וּ֝בֵֽאלֹהַ֗י אֲדַלֶּג־שֽׁוּר׃

 

Instant Details :

 

אָרֻ֣ץ  רוץ  Verb qal imperf 1 com sing  to run (Predicate)

[ESVS] H7323  run

 

So there is one clear deficiency though I believe it's known if I recall other posts.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

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#11 Michael P Finkelstein

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 02:02 PM

Yes, but this one clear deficiency is furthermore interpolated in a series of scenarios—both in Hebrew and Greek—to make many deficiencies. You take from the lesser to make a lesser, whereas I take from the lesser to demonstrate a greater.



#12 R. Mansfield

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 03:04 PM

Thanks Rick,

 

Would the MT-LXX Interlinear Database actually create those highlights between the LXX and a modern English translation in some way, or just between the LXX and the HMT?

 

Also, any advice on the Greek pronunciation thing?

 

Thanks again,

 

ML

 

Matt, I believe this thread has gotten a bit sidetracked, but let me go back to you original questions, the second of which I don't think we ever answered. 

 

First, let me show you what the MT-LXX interlinear would look like with just the texts you mentioned. Of course, there's much more that can be added to the columns, including morphological and syntax information, other texts, lexical forms, etc. 

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2015-12-12 at 2.56.27 PM.png   470.81KB   2 downloads

 

Second, you had asked about audio. We just released our New Testament Greek Audio module (Hebrew is in development). Right now it runs in parallel with the Greek text and can be heard at the level of the verse reference. That is, you can start the audio at the beginning of the verse, but not yet at the level of the word itself. There are plans to more fully integrate the audio into Accordance, but I don't have any details at the moment. 


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#13 Abram K-J

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 03:40 PM

Also, are there any audio sets that would enable me to just click on a Greek word and listen to its pronunciation? 

 

The little-known -9 shortcut performs the action of Amplify/Language/Speak, once you've got a Greek word highlighted. I either can't recall or never knew the source of those pronunciations, though.


More info at the help files here, toward the bottom of this page (where "Speak" is highlighted).


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#14 mleavesley

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 08:10 AM

Rick, thanks for that info. That was really helpful. It looks like that interlinear module would basically do what I'm looking for at this point. 

 

Another question about that. On your screenshot, what Greek text is it using for the MT-LXX line at the bottom? Is it just Rahlfs because I think that's all I have. 

 

Also, could someone translate the Apple command shortcut Abram mentioned into a PC equivalent for me so I could give that a try?

 

Thanks,

 

ML



#15 R. Mansfield

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 09:09 AM

Yes, it is using Rahlfs' LXX.

I don't have my Windows laptop in front of me (typing this on my iPad), but most Command-key combinations on the Mac use the Control key on Windows.

Having said that, though, I find the computer speech feature to be a bit dated. This is why we are moving to actual recorded voice and will be integrating it further into the system in future versions.

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