Jump to content


Photo

Predicative Participles


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 Martin Zhang

Martin Zhang

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS, Android

Posted 05 February 2016 - 11:22 AM

Hello,

 

I want to search for the participles that function as predicates (not adjectival or substantival usages) and their subjects in the BHS.

And further, I want to differentiate Sub-Ptcp from Ptcp-Sub (also I don't want to miss those without explicit subjects).

 

There are a few other things I need to be aware of:

There may be other elements between the Sub and Ptcp, for example, in case of construct chains (I'm not sure if there are other elements or not).

 

Subjects maybe independents words, but they may also be suffix to words such as yesh.

 

Any help will be appreciated!!!

 

Blessings,
Martin
 

Martin
Accordance tutorials in Chinese.


#2 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 859 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 05 February 2016 - 07:16 PM

Martin,

It's critical to know that participles are always taken as complements of a copula, whether null (mostly) or lexical (rarely). I've attached two searches in the zipped file below. Try them out and then we can discuss questions you have.

 

Attached Files


Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#3 Martin Zhang

Martin Zhang

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS, Android

Posted 06 February 2016 - 12:37 AM

Hi Robert,

 

Thank you so much for helping me out!

I'm completely new to Syntax search. I actually don't understand the settings you set up for the search. For example, I don't know why you set "scope" as "chapter"instead of, let's say, verse or clause.

 

Based on your setting, I was able to get some results. However, these are less than those listed in Jan Joosten's "The Verbal System of Biblical Hebrew" (a textbook I'm using in this semester. This book maybe download from academia.com, uploaded by Jan Joonsten himself.)

 

from Joonsten, p. 231, Ptcp–Su has around 140 occurrences in OT.

I got 130 hits from your file. That is very close!

 

from Joonsten, p. 231, footnote 8, in Genesis, Ptcp-Su 13 cases; Su–Ptcp 100 cases.

I got 8 cases of Ptcp–Su, and 61 cases of Su-Ptcp.

 

As for me, I'm working on 1-2 Samuels this semester. I will check each case as through as I can in 1-2 Sam (probably in next month). (If I don't have enough time, I will do just 1 Samuel. But I guess there would probably not be enough cases for any conclusion, I may have to do 1-2 Sam).

 

Thanks again!


Martin
Accordance tutorials in Chinese.


#4 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 859 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:57 AM

First, the discrepancies are likely due to the fact that our database does not yet include Jeremiah and Isaiah. Thus, while it is *always* important to double-check database results, I doubt there is anything fundamentally different between Joosten's identification of participial clauses and ours.

 

Second, you should also set the syntax searching to chapter or book. Clauses often extend over verses, so setting a syntax search to verse will exclude too many relevant hits. In fact, this may be true in a few cases for chapter, so it's best to set syntax searches to book. The clause and sentence settings do not work for the Hebrew text -- they are only accessible for Greek texts. 

 

Finally, in your study of the BH verbal system, I encourage you to use John Cook's Time and the Biblical Hebrew Verb (Eisenbrauns, 2012) alongside Joosten's book. They make quite an interesting contrast. 


Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#5 Helen Brown

Helen Brown

    Emerald

  • Admin
  • 12,008 posts
  • Twitter:accordancebible
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:heart in Israel
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS, Android

Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:59 AM

Please will you all observe the Forum guidelines and refrain from personal attacks, even where your opinions may differ.


  • Daniel R likes this
Helen Brown
OakTree Software

#6 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 859 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:40 AM

Indeed, this has become strangely personal.

 

I find it interesting that by impugning my publishing record, you have also impugned the editors of the journals who accepted my works, including van der Merwe and Joosten. Moreover, the coherence of Principles and Parameters as a linguistic theory can stand on its own quite apart from my work, so criticism of it in this context are wasted breath. 

 

I stand by my initial comment -- Andrason's works don't make sense of the text. He does not give examples in textual context or show that he reads the texts. He is playing around with creating a system (yes, grammar is a system), but one that is detached from actual usage. 

 

And I stand by my second comment -- if you want to opine in academic contexts, earn the right to be heard.

 

Shall we get back to the topic of the thread now -- subject and participle searches?


Edited by Robert Holmstedt, 08 February 2016 - 07:42 AM.

Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#7 Daniel R

Daniel R

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 08 February 2016 - 11:17 AM

Claiming that Andrason's work is detached from actual usage is funny to me. Seems like someone hasn't read his book on the Hebrew verbal system (probably cause its in Spanish).  Also it seems very uncritical to make arguments against someone's work without actual arguments. If the point is to get back to the topic of the thread, why go further into attacks against someone's work without actual arguments? Can you show where he hasn't given examples that he should have? Can you show where cited examples were ripped from context to make his point? Or will you just say that in public without evidence?



#8 rwrobinson88

rwrobinson88

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 181 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peoria, Illinois
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X

Posted 08 February 2016 - 11:28 AM

Helen asked for this to stop. Not the purpose for this forum. 

 

Robert, I'd encourage you not to respond further. 

 

To all,

Linguistic and academic zeal is great. But, honoring Accordance's request in the midst of this zeal is more important. :) 

 

Blessings fellas. 


  • Timothy Jenney likes this

#9 Timothy Jenney

Timothy Jenney

    Mithril

  • Accordance
  • 3,285 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:sunny Winter Haven, FL
  • Interests:a great cup of coffee, sci-fi, jazz and the blues, kayaking, camping, fishing and the great outdoors
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 08 February 2016 - 11:39 AM

I agree with Ryan, totally.

 

We don't tolerate these sort of negative comments on (or personal attacks on the authors of) the various other resources we offer. I see no reason we should permit them on our syntactical databases. People disagree. That's the nature of scholarship. Buy/support the resources you find useful. Pass on the other ones.

 

I'm grateful Robert takes the time to help our users with questions. Very few of our authors make themselves so available.


  • rwrobinson88 likes this
Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer
Academic Licensing Assistant

iMac: Late 2014 27" 5k display, 4.0 GHz quad core i7, 24 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD, AMD Radeon R9 M295X 4096 MB, macOS Sierra 10.13
MBP: Early 2011 17" MBP (8,3), 2.3 GHz quad core i7, 16 GB RAM, 480 SSD + 1 TB SSD, AMD Radeon HD 6750M, macOS Sierra 10.13
iPhone 7 plus: 128 GB, iOS 11.x

#10 Daniel R

Daniel R

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 08 February 2016 - 11:45 AM

It seems like everyone except Dr. Holmstedt is being chastised with these last two comments. He opened himself up to an academic criticism by not giving evidence for the claims he has made. That's not a personal attack.

 

Thank you Ryan and Dr. J for seeking good communication in this forum. A tribute to the both of you.

 

https://youtu.be/_lK4cX5xGiQ



#11 Martin Zhang

Martin Zhang

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS, Android

Posted 08 February 2016 - 11:45 AM

Sorry, the post wasn't meant for a debate. But I know that all of you just want to help out a person in need such as I.  :)

 

Robert,

I don't have too much time to dive into Accordance in this month. I have a few books to read for an important exam this month. After that, I will examine the participles in the book of Samuels. I will compare my manual findings and the search result that you uploaded for me. I'm sure I will learn a lot in this process.

Regarding Jone Cook, my professor also assigned an article by him for us to read. He did mention that Jooston's opinion on Participle is different from the traditional understanding. Joosten contends that predicative participles should be included in finite verb system. Therefore I want to see for myself.

 

Yochai,

Thank you for bringing Alexander Andrason to my attention. I have not heard of him.  I can't read Spanish (English is already too much for me~~). But I will check out his English articles.

 

Blessings!


Martin
Accordance tutorials in Chinese.


#12 Fabian

Fabian

    Mithril

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,112 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Accordance Version:13.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 08 February 2016 - 01:04 PM

 Buy/support the resources you find useful. Pass on the other ones.

 

If Accordance offers both we can decide, which we want to buy. Or both.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


  • Yochai Brechiyya likes this
Greetings

Fabian

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bugs, I describe.

PLEASE!
Bring more international Bibles to the store,
fix my reported bugs, even the old ones which never was addressed,
develop my feature requests, the new once and the once I made years ago,
in nearer future.

#13 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 859 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 08 February 2016 - 02:34 PM

Martin,

 

If you encounter what you think are errors in the database as you work though the Samuel data, please send them to me. As you will see from other threads in the syntax sub-forum, I consider user input valuable in making the databases more accurate and thus usable. 

 

For others reading this thread, I would simply encourage a revisit of any dictionary for the definition of ad hominem. My comments about Alex Andrason's work on the verbal system had nothing to do with his person. But my assessments do proceed from a principle I consider fundamental  to BH linguistics work, which I'll say again (I'm sure I've said it somewhere before in the Forum) -- the cogency of any linguistic argument on a dead language, like BH, can only be judged by three criteria: 1) whether it is internally coherent, 2) whether it draws upon general theory and data outside Hebrew studies (theory and cross-linguistic data provide the external controls), and 3) whether it makes sense of the text from which the data are drawn. 

 

Whatever one thinks of our syntax database (and I'm encouraged that others are being added; at least one of them I was personally involved in pushing the creator to add to the Accordance library), we have attempted to make it in accordance with all three principles.


Edited by Robert Holmstedt, 08 February 2016 - 02:35 PM.

Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users