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#1 Helen Brown

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 06:10 AM

We are interested to receive (privately or here in the forums) an evaluation of the usefulness of Paratext versus Accordance. Paratext was developed by SIL, and now in cooperation with UBS. It is primarily a tool for translators. Do any of you have experience using it?


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#2 Ιακοβ

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 03:56 AM

I downloaded the product as part of my search for something that would help me with my personal bible translation work, I am not paid to do this, but I produce my own translation for my own usage as I work through the greek, and eventually the hebrew. I didn't get far, as it appears to require registration, and it seems I am ineligible for it.

So instead, I am currently considering their file format for my own translation work, combined with scripts to do produce nice readable output. There is certainly a gap in this area. Would be nice if someone filled it, as far as I can tell, its not possible to easily create your own bible translation with footnotes, references, study notes, and so on.


My top 5 feature requests:
  1. 15pt font size for reading text (bible, journal articles, commentaries, etc...)
  2. Improved searching for Journal articles. (So we can search for journal article by verse + english text)
  3. Display Journal titles in journal search results. (Imagine a google search where you saw the page text but no headings?)
  4. Improved greek text search—i.e. allow searching of all greek text the same way you would search LXX+NT, i.e. LXX+NT+ApocFathers+etc...
  5. Phrase (sympathetic) highlighting.

#3 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 08:20 AM

I had that same experience but when I looked at it it looked good. I then tried CTE but it's more for critical editions than translation per se. so I never went beyond the demos.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/


Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#4 dandennison

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 08:31 PM

I ported Bibledit to Windows. While Paratext is nice it has considerable licensing issues.

Bibledit can sync your place with Bibleworks and adding an Accordance sync would be helpful.

Personally I think the translation editing software is a distinct genre from what Accordance does, although if you buy out Paratext for the purpose of making their licensing civilized and not onerous I'd support such a move. :)
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#5 dandennison

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 06:08 AM

Elaborating a bit, in our translation reviews, we use two or three projectors in front of the committee. One has Bibledit, another Accordance or Bibleworks, and the third if present has Adapt-It which is free software for doing back translations.

It would be super useful if Accordance could import standard format, USFM, and USFX as either a user module or as a text. If the interlinear feature was expanded to allow an edit mode, we could then do the back translation right inside of Accordance and skip having to use Adapt-It entirely. Best, we could then stack up the target translation alongside the typically English or French back translation. That would be sweet.

Bonus points for then allowing tags to be inserted so that you end up with both a tagged native and back translation!
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#6 EricC

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 06:20 AM

Elaborating a bit, in our translation reviews, we use two or three projectors in front of the committee. One has Bibledit, another Accordance or Bibleworks, and the third if present has Adapt-It which is free software for doing back translations.

It would be super useful if Accordance could import standard format, USFM, and USFX as either a user module or as a text. If the interlinear feature was expanded to allow an edit mode, we could then do the back translation right inside of Accordance and skip having to use Adapt-It entirely. Best, we could then stack up the target translation alongside the typically English or French back translation. That would be sweet.

Bonus points for then allowing tags to be inserted so that you end up with both a tagged native and back translation!

 

I like all of these ideas! It would indeed be useful if Accordance could be used alongside Bibledit and/or Paratext.


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#7 Ιακοβ

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 07:20 PM

It would be super useful if Accordance could import standard format, USFM, and USFX as either a user module or as a text. If the interlinear feature was expanded to allow an edit mode, we could then do the back translation right inside of Accordance and skip having to use Adapt-It entirely. Best, we could then stack up the target translation alongside the typically English or French back translation. That would be sweet.
 

 

This!!

None of the tools for bible translation work are that great, so I ended up deciding to work using a text editor (vim) to edit raw USFM files directly. It is a little annoying at times, but it is a lot more efficient than trying to work with some of the free products. Being able to import my translation work from USFM into accordance (or even to script up a translation of USFM into an accordance compatible format) would be really handy. Having put the work into doing my own translations, not being able to use it with accordance (alongside commentaries and so on) is quite frustrating.


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My top 5 feature requests:
  1. 15pt font size for reading text (bible, journal articles, commentaries, etc...)
  2. Improved searching for Journal articles. (So we can search for journal article by verse + english text)
  3. Display Journal titles in journal search results. (Imagine a google search where you saw the page text but no headings?)
  4. Improved greek text search—i.e. allow searching of all greek text the same way you would search LXX+NT, i.e. LXX+NT+ApocFathers+etc...
  5. Phrase (sympathetic) highlighting.

#8 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 11:32 PM

Would Haiola help you convert it ? http://haiola.org/

Alternatively something in Python, or something similar, would be easy to do if you USFM doesn't use too many of the possible tags.

 

Thx

D


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Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/


Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#9 Ιακοβ

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 12:02 AM

Would Haiola help you convert it ? http://haiola.org/

Alternatively something in Python, or something similar, would be easy to do if you USFM doesn't use too many of the possible tags.

 

Interesting site. I checked it out, it doesn't anywhere list Accordance output as an option.  Otherwise it would have been great. (And yes I do use quite a significantly large range of the USFM tags. I generally use it not just to hold a translation, but all the translation notes, study notes, cross-references and other such things.


My top 5 feature requests:
  1. 15pt font size for reading text (bible, journal articles, commentaries, etc...)
  2. Improved searching for Journal articles. (So we can search for journal article by verse + english text)
  3. Display Journal titles in journal search results. (Imagine a google search where you saw the page text but no headings?)
  4. Improved greek text search—i.e. allow searching of all greek text the same way you would search LXX+NT, i.e. LXX+NT+ApocFathers+etc...
  5. Phrase (sympathetic) highlighting.

#10 Fabian

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 02:33 AM

We are interested to receive (privately or here in the forums) an evaluation of the usefulness of Paratext versus Accordance. Paratext was developed by SIL, and now in cooperation with UBS. It is primarily a tool for translators. Do any of you have experience using it?

I belive Helen haden't ask this without reason :ph34r:

 

But it's great to talk here about the "Bible tranlation" topic, this shows interest. 

 

From the beginning Accordance was more a tool for research the Bible, that was great but only one part. Hopefully in 12th version comes another part in addition.

 

Singn me in even I didn't have any experience with paratext.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


Greetings

Fabian

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bugs, I describe.

PLEASE!
Bring more international Bibles to the store,
fix my reported bugs, even the old ones which never was addressed,
develop my feature requests, the new once and the once I made years ago,
in nearer future.

#11 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 09:17 AM

Hey Ιακοβ,

 

  So I had to convert the Sinaiticus from the not quite TEI XML format that the Sinaiticus project used. To do that I wrote a bunch of Python. It was built on the idea of loading the data in through essentially an adapter that read a particular format, and then converted it to an internal form. Then wrote it out using an adapter that wrote Accordance bible import format. It was done that way so that alternative inputs and outputs could be supported if required. In that sense it's a little like what hiola does. In the case you have it would be possible to write an input adapter to read USFM and render internally the biblical text itself and emit that in Accordance format. With more enhancement it would be possible to do something with the notes and such. But they would end up in either a notes file or more likely a user tool. Even with this approach there would some limitations no doubt.

 

  I had been going to open source the code on GitHub but haven't gotten around to cleaning things up enough and double checking the doc and such. But if you are interested in the code (I think you have said you code in some other post, but perhaps I mis-remember) you would be welcome to it.

 

Thx

D


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Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/


Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#12 Ιακοβ

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 09:04 PM

Hey Ιακοβ,

 

  So I had to convert the Sinaiticus from the not quite TEI XML format that the Sinaiticus project used. To do that I wrote a bunch of Python. It was built on the idea of loading the data in through essentially an adapter that read a particular format, and then converted it to an internal form. Then wrote it out using an adapter that wrote Accordance bible import format. It was done that way so that alternative inputs and outputs could be supported if required. In that sense it's a little like what hiola does. In the case you have it would be possible to write an input adapter to read USFM and render internally the biblical text itself and emit that in Accordance format. With more enhancement it would be possible to do something with the notes and such. But they would end up in either a notes file or more likely a user tool. Even with this approach there would some limitations no doubt.

 

  I had been going to open source the code on GitHub but haven't gotten around to cleaning things up enough and double checking the doc and such. But if you are interested in the code (I think you have said you code in some other post, but perhaps I mis-remember) you would be welcome to it.

 

Thx

D

 

I believe its written in python yea? Its probably the only language I haven't put any time into learning. If I remember correctly, the spacing being part put me off. These days I am enjoying writing using go. Certainly we do need a great project like this, but for me personally, I can't see myself adding python to the list of things I need to learn this year.


My top 5 feature requests:
  1. 15pt font size for reading text (bible, journal articles, commentaries, etc...)
  2. Improved searching for Journal articles. (So we can search for journal article by verse + english text)
  3. Display Journal titles in journal search results. (Imagine a google search where you saw the page text but no headings?)
  4. Improved greek text search—i.e. allow searching of all greek text the same way you would search LXX+NT, i.e. LXX+NT+ApocFathers+etc...
  5. Phrase (sympathetic) highlighting.

#13 JoshuaB

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 07:35 PM

I wish I could get a chance to use Paratext. Right now i'm working on using Bibledit. I also installed Sile and had a look at that today. If anyone knows a way I can gain access to Paratext I would really appreciate it. It would be great if I could remotely join a typesetting team if possible.



#14 Ιακοβ

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 05:21 PM

I wish I could get a chance to use Paratext. Right now i'm working on using Bibledit. I also installed Sile and had a look at that today. If anyone knows a way I can gain access to Paratext I would really appreciate it. It would be great if I could remotely join a typesetting team if possible.

 

I looked at it and contacted them, there appears no way that they would allow it, they don't even sell it as a product. It seems access to that software is reserved for special people, which is their prerogative I guess. Best to stick to software by people that actually want to make a way to allow people to use it.

 

Based on the screenshots, it doesn't seem like it is that great anyway, the main benefit of Paratext is that it has an associated well documented text based bible file format, which has become somewhat of a de facto standard. 


Edited by Ιακοβ, 18 November 2016 - 05:22 PM.

My top 5 feature requests:
  1. 15pt font size for reading text (bible, journal articles, commentaries, etc...)
  2. Improved searching for Journal articles. (So we can search for journal article by verse + english text)
  3. Display Journal titles in journal search results. (Imagine a google search where you saw the page text but no headings?)
  4. Improved greek text search—i.e. allow searching of all greek text the same way you would search LXX+NT, i.e. LXX+NT+ApocFathers+etc...
  5. Phrase (sympathetic) highlighting.

#15 Fabian

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 05:46 PM

Does "well documented" mean, Accordance will be able after programming to support this file format?


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Greetings

Fabian

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bugs, I describe.

PLEASE!
Bring more international Bibles to the store,
fix my reported bugs, even the old ones which never was addressed,
develop my feature requests, the new once and the once I made years ago,
in nearer future.

#16 Ιακοβ

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 08:59 PM

Does "well documented" mean, Accordance will be able after programming to support this file format?

 

Technically, yes. It seems that a reasonably reliable conversion to/from the user bible format and the usfm format would be not overly difficult.

 

I'm not sure if there would be any legal issues though, I'm not sure if you could sell a product containing converter. I suspect it would be possible, but I don't know for sure—the only way to avoid the slightest change of legal issues would be to get permission from the person/people who wrote the file format specifications.


Edited by Ιακοβ, 18 November 2016 - 09:01 PM.

My top 5 feature requests:
  1. 15pt font size for reading text (bible, journal articles, commentaries, etc...)
  2. Improved searching for Journal articles. (So we can search for journal article by verse + english text)
  3. Display Journal titles in journal search results. (Imagine a google search where you saw the page text but no headings?)
  4. Improved greek text search—i.e. allow searching of all greek text the same way you would search LXX+NT, i.e. LXX+NT+ApocFathers+etc...
  5. Phrase (sympathetic) highlighting.

#17 EricC

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Posted 19 November 2016 - 12:16 AM

Paratext 8 will allow anyone to use Paratext "on the basic tier". See http://pt8.paratext.org/registration/ for a chart showing who can use it and the differences between the tiers.

 

I guess the main issue is that PT had many built-in copyrighted resources, so they limited its use to a certain set of users. However, now it seems they are able to provide the basic program to anyone, and those "who are vetted as having a translation role in a qualifying Bible translation organization are on the Translator or Publisher tiers", i.e., they get the copyrighted content. At least that's my understanding.

 

Bibledit uses the same USFM format, is free, is open source, and the web-based version of it is very well supported by the developer.

 

NOTE TO ACCORDANCE: a way to bring USFM-coded Bibles into Accordance would be a wonderful, amazing, welcome, super-duper thing. Please????


Edited by EricC, 19 November 2016 - 12:17 AM.

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#18 Ιακοβ

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Posted 19 November 2016 - 04:02 AM

Your right, it appears their policy has changed with regards to allowing other translators to use the software.  Thats good news.

 

However with regards to USFM, simply because another piece of software uses that format, it doesn't mean its not legally encumbered. I can't see any legal statement that would allow an assumption that it is free to use. There have certainly been cases  in the past where standards that are openly known and used, were found to be legal problematic. 

 

https://en.wikipedia...prietary_format

 

http://paratext.org/about/usfm


My top 5 feature requests:
  1. 15pt font size for reading text (bible, journal articles, commentaries, etc...)
  2. Improved searching for Journal articles. (So we can search for journal article by verse + english text)
  3. Display Journal titles in journal search results. (Imagine a google search where you saw the page text but no headings?)
  4. Improved greek text search—i.e. allow searching of all greek text the same way you would search LXX+NT, i.e. LXX+NT+ApocFathers+etc...
  5. Phrase (sympathetic) highlighting.

#19 JoshuaB

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Posted 19 November 2016 - 03:53 PM

Paratext 8 will allow anyone to use Paratext "on the basic tier". See http://pt8.paratext.org/registration/ for a chart showing who can use it and the differences between the tiers.

 

I guess the main issue is that PT had many built-in copyrighted resources, so they limited its use to a certain set of users. However, now it seems they are able to provide the basic program to anyone, and those "who are vetted as having a translation role in a qualifying Bible translation organization are on the Translator or Publisher tiers", i.e., they get the copyrighted content. At least that's my understanding.

 

Bibledit uses the same USFM format, is free, is open source, and the web-based version of it is very well supported by the developer.

 

NOTE TO ACCORDANCE: a way to bring USFM-coded Bibles into Accordance would be a wonderful, amazing, welcome, super-duper thing. Please????

 

Thanks for posting this. I just registered and installed the Paratext 8 pre-release. It's just want I was looking for. :) I like how everything is color coded in Standard mode. Registering and installing the software was very easy.

 

I was and still will use Bibledit. When away from my PC I will use Bibledit and on my PC I will use Paratext 8. Somethings I would copy paste directly out the USFM PDF from paratext.org would not show correctly in the final preview on Bibledit. Now I can just work from both programs since Bibledit also works with Paratext.



#20 Fabian

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 04:27 PM

I'm still interested for Accordance XIII.

 

I see in the image from http://pt8.paratext.org/features/the disadvantage from absence of a numbering system. Even if they are visible as interlinear Attached File  Bildschirmfoto 2017-12-03 um 22.10.57.png   124.26KB   0 downloads. If the App would connect just by creating a Bible the words with Strongs or GK this would be a great advantage. Then all Bible came tagged. At the moment there is a huge amount of work to tag it afterwards. Which mostly all denied to do.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

 

 


Greetings

Fabian

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bugs, I describe.

PLEASE!
Bring more international Bibles to the store,
fix my reported bugs, even the old ones which never was addressed,
develop my feature requests, the new once and the once I made years ago,
in nearer future.




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