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#1 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 12:38 PM

Hi ya,

 

  Acc 12.0.1

  Mac 10.11.6

 

  Ran across this oddity while looking for non-nominative subjects.

  Here's the search :

 

Attached File  deSubject.jpg   109.69KB   0 downloads

 

  There are a number of such cases as Matt 4:4 where δε is tagged as part of the Subject phrase without further specification. Thus the search finds them as Subjects. I am wondering if they should be tagged as conjunctions under the Subject or rather removed from the subject entirely and put into the enclosing phrase or clause.

 

  This query finds some 262 hits of this type :

 

Attached File  deAsSubjectQry.jpg   29.03KB   1 downloads

 

  so it's definitely common enough. I wonder what the rationale is.

 

  Thoughts ? Alternatives ?

 

Thx

D


Edited by דָנִיאֶל, 25 November 2016 - 12:43 PM.

Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

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#2 rwrobinson88

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 06:18 PM

yeahhhhhh. I'd encourage a change. :) 



#3 Ken Simpson

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 07:30 PM

I think δε as part of the subject phrase makes sense. δε doesn’t only function as a semantic conjunction, adversative or otherwise. It is often much more like a particle acting as a marker of a new sentence. In fact when I was learning classical Greek we were taught it was a particle, and that it sometimes had adversative force. So I don’t really see an issue, just remove the conjunctions (since we have tagged them that way) from the search. Am I missing something here?

 

Much more interesting to me is why αδελφους is tagged as subject. It would have seen αδελφους as the direct object of ειδον, and then the participle βαλλοντες acting as a relativising phrase “who were casting”. But that is a matter of judgement, and Marco is way more skilled at Greek than I. Seeing αδελφους as an oblique case subject of βαλλοντες works for me, ϳust a judgement call there, and part of what makes Greek so interesting. I certainly don’t think it changes our exegesis in the slightest.

 

Thanks for an interesting observation Daniel!


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#4 rwrobinson88

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 07:50 PM

δὲ is a connective that marks development (semantics like adversative are from context not the connective itself). 

 

The way I understand it and what a lot of has come out recently in studies on the function of δὲ (Runge, Levinsohn, Fresch, etc) shows that it is a connective that is going to mark development between clauses. 

 

I'd stick with putting like is show below myself:

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2016-11-25 at 6.38.59 PM.png   81.67KB   0 downloads



#5 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 08:37 PM

Ken, Yep I could just remove the conjunctions and I'll try that in my queries when I get a chance - I just found this in passing on my way to something else.

 

Ryan, I had considered that it might be modelled as you suggest if it were to be moved out of the Subject Phrase. I could imagine compound Subjects using δε ִwithin them though so I could easily image cases where it would be inside. In these cases though it looks to me like it could be moved into the enclosing N clause. But ..... and this is one thing I'm wondering about .... to what extent does this impose discourse considerations upon the syntax. I'm not qualified to judge really. But I looked for other cases specifically to see if this was a common practice. Hopefully Marco will weigh in with his reasoning on this one.

 

Ken, if δε should be read as a development marker is its true place in the enclosing Clause or the enclosed Subject ? I don't know but I would have leaned toward the former. Is development marking a syntactic concern or a discourse one ? I've thought it the latter, due to reading Runge and Levinsohn mainly. Not sure where that lands me actually now so I'll stop.

 

In the end though I am interested in consistency, so that one can write queries with a reasonable expectation of getting a result that one can understand. If one has to guess too much how a particular case will be represented in the syntax it will be harder to put to use.

 

Regarding the accusative Subject, I didn't even notice so fixed on the δε as I was ! Interesting, but somehow I'm much more comfortable with that than with the δε. I wondered if a NULL relative should have been supposed by the syntax but then verb is a participial acc so that would have bought one nothing here. It's more like an adjectival complement to the accusative. Again how Marco came to this conclusion here would be interesting and instructive to me. As you say there is nothing of exegetical significance in it. I note that there is another case of exactly this type tagged the same way in 4:21.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

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Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
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#6 rwrobinson88

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Posted 26 November 2016 - 08:31 AM

Ryan, I had considered that it might be modelled as you suggest if it were to be moved out of the Subject Phrase. I could imagine compound Subjects using δε ִwithin them though so I could easily image cases where it would be inside. In these cases though it looks to me like it could be moved into the enclosing N clause. But ..... and this is one thing I'm wondering about .... to what extent does this impose discourse considerations upon the syntax. I'm not qualified to judge really. But I looked for other cases specifically to see if this was a common practice. Hopefully Marco will weigh in with his reasoning on this one.

 

 

I think it could be within a higher level Subject Phrase in this approach to syntax. But, it would still need to be two clauses within that one subject i.e. there are two embedded clauses. 

 

To you question about the imposing of discourse considerations upon syntax, I'd say it's not easy to keep two compartments of δὲ as a discourse marker and δὲ in syntax. Really, when Levinsohn and Runge talk about δὲ as a development marker, they are talking about it's "semantic constraint" (Influenced by Diane Blakemore's work on semantics and pragmatics of discourse markers). So, it's not as much a discourse perspective as it is semantics of the connective. 

 

So, I think it is fair to say that if there is the embedding of clauses under the higher level of subject, I think it fair to have δὲ under the subject phrase. But, other than that I wouldn't mark it that way (and definitely not in Matthew 4:4 as show in the example above). But, that is how I see things. :) Fun discussion.



#7 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 11:39 AM

I need to comment on the the first message first. 
 

Hi ya,
 
  Acc 12.0.1
  Mac 10.11.6
 
  Ran across this oddity while looking for non-nominative subjects.
  Here's the search :
 
attachicon.gifdeSubject.jpg
 
  There are a number of such cases as Matt 4:4 where δε is tagged as part of the Subject phrase without further specification. Thus the search finds them as Subjects. I am wondering if they should be tagged as conjunctions under the Subject or rather removed from the subject entirely and put into the enclosing phrase or clause.
 
  This query finds some 262 hits of this type :
 
attachicon.gifdeAsSubjectQry.jpg
 
  so it's definitely common enough. I wonder what the rationale is.
 
  Thoughts ? Alternatives ?
 
Thx
D

It is frequent to find the article followed by δε. In most cases, δε is a connective that marks development, as explained by Runge and below. The connection will then be between clauses. The fact that δε is found after the article doesn't imply that δε is connected with the article. It is just that δε is found as second word in a clause. The first happens to be the article. I think we are all on the same page here.
 
However, in Homeric Greek there was no article, and ὁ, ἡ, τό was a demonstrative pronoun, just as ὅδε, ἥδε, τόδε in is Attic and Koine Greek, or as a third person personal pronoun, as αὐτός is in Attic and Koine Greek

At some point in archaic Greek ὁ, ἡ, τό became the article. It was no longer used as a pronoun, except when followed by δέ. In that case ὁ δέ is not different from ὅδε.

 

This is easier to recognize when ὁ μέν precedes and ὁ δέ follows.

 

This is why ὁ δέ is tagged as a single subject.

 

 


Edited by Marco V. Fabbri, 09 December 2016 - 11:40 AM.

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#8 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 11:51 AM

Now I need to address this comment.

 

Much more interesting to me is why αδελφους is tagged as subject. It would have seen αδελφους as the direct object of ειδον, and then the participle βαλλοντες acting as a relativising phrase “who were casting”. But that is a matter of judgement, and Marco is way more skilled at Greek than I. Seeing αδελφους as an oblique case subject of βαλλοντες works for me, ϳust a judgement call there, and part of what makes Greek so interesting. I certainly don’t think it changes our exegesis in the slightest.

 

I have treated such accusative with participle in the same way as we treat accusative with infinitives. Following a limited number of verb of perception, and also some other as εὑρίσκω, the accusative with participle is more frequent than accusative with infinitive is. We can't point to a syntactical difference between the two constructs.

In other words, it is not an attributive participle, but a predicative participle. I worked with the list provided in Moulton, GNTG, 3: Syntax, pages 160-162.

 

The same kind of participle is called supplementary participle in Blass-Debrunner-Funk § 416. This may be more convenient to consult, as it has just become available within Accordance. However, we don't use "supplement" as a syntax label in the database.


Please inform me if some concern was left unaddressed.

It is also possible that I addressed it, but you don't agree, and some more discussion is needed.


Edited by Marco V. Fabbri, 09 December 2016 - 12:01 PM.

Marco Valerio Fabbri
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#9 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 02:24 PM

Hi Marco,

 

  Many thanx on the ὁ δέ explanation. I didn't reply immediately as I wanted to go to the grammars and such and have a look. BDF makes this interesting observation :

 

1 Clem 50.3, 63.2 has ὅδε correctly, but ἣ δέ is to be written rather than ἥδε in 12.4 (anacoluthon following a gen. absol.; cf. §468(3)).—Ὅδε is rare also in the pap. (it is not found in i BC): Mayser I2 2, 66; II 1, 73f.—Rob. 696f.


F. Blass, A. Debrunner, and Robert W. Funk, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Accordance electronic ed. (Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1961), 151.
accord://read/BDF_Greek#3766

 

Bold is mine above.

 

  This would appear to be the same phenomenon.

 

  Now going back to the NT, where many instances of ὁ δέ occur. Taking one more or less at random as an example then :

 

Μαθθαῖον 2·14 ὁ δὲ ἐγερθεὶς παρέλαβεν τὸ παιδίον καὶ τὴν μητέρα αὐτοῦ νυκτὸς καὶ ἀνεχώρησεν εἰς Αἴγυπτον,

 

  one sees such translations as (again bold is mine):

 

So Joseph got up, took the Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel.”
(Matthew 2:21 New American Standard Bible Update)
accord://read/NAS95S#Matt._2:21

 

And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt”
(Matthew 2:14 The Holy Bible, English Standard Version)
accord://read/ESVS#Matt._2:14

 

Then Joseph got up, took the child and his mother by night, and went to Egypt,”
(Matthew 2:14 New Revised Standard Version of the Bible)
accord://read/NRSVS#Matt._2:14

 

  all of which appear to handle δε as a post-positive connective but in

 

When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:”
(Matthew 2:14 King James Version)
accord://read/KJVS#Matt._2:14

 

Who arose, and took the child and his mother by night, and retired into Egypt: and he was there until the death of Herod:”
(Matthew 2:14 Douay-Rheims Bible)
accord://read/DOUAY#Matt._2:14

 

  which would appear to handle the δε in the way you have it tagged in the syntax, if one accepts the 'When' as coming from the participle.

 

  Based on your explanation above then, I would assume that the KJV/ Douay translations better capture ο δε than the NAS, NRSV, an ESV, at least as far as the syntax goes. Would you agree ?

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1





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