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Diagram module and predicative nominative ordering

diagramming diagram greek

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#1 Ιακοβ

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:29 PM

I've noticed that in some cases, the diagram will reflect a re-ordering of what appears in the original greek, i.e. John 1:1

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2017-01-21 at 10.52.00 am.png   14.21KB   0 downloads

 

And at other times, the ordering has been left as per the order of the text, i.e. 2John 7:

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2017-01-21 at 10.52.15 am.png   22.42KB   0 downloads

 

This makes me wonder, in situations like the second case is there a greek grammar rule that is dictating the ordering, or is there a diagramming rule that is dictating the ordering? Who decides upon the rules for diagramming anyway? Long story short, how do we decide how these things appear in diagrams?

 

Thanks!



#2 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:35 PM

I'm guessing (not knowing much about diagramming) that they are putting the Subject to the left of the vertical bar and the Pred Nom after the verb.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

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#3 A. Smith

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 10:33 PM

Without knowing how accordance does their diagrams I will say that subject and predicate in Greek are not determined by word order. See wallacogrammar for a good explanation.

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#4 Ιακοβ

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 12:50 AM

Without knowing how accordance does their diagrams I will say that subject and predicate in Greek are not determined by word order. See wallacogrammar for a good explanation.

 

HI Anthony,

 

I understand that, that is why I have this question. It seems like the diagramming in accordance doesn't consistently follow the text, and doesn't consistently follow how I understand the rules for determining the predicate nominative. Which leads me to two questions, perhaps I am not understanding the predicate nominative rule, or perhaps the rules for diagramming are different, if there are indeed rules at all for diagramming?



#5 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 01:51 AM

According to Wallace:

 

The Jn 1:1 case is a subset proposition - the word belongs to the larger category θεος.

 

For the second case you need to study his  'pecking order' rules. Wallace gives highest priority to the pronoun as the subject. Thus in the second case above the subject is the pronoun and the articular nouns the pred noms. And that looks like how it's diagrammed above. However, I checked the second case in the syntax diagrams and it's diagrammed the other way with ὁ πλάνος καὶ ὁ ἀντίχριστος being the subject. That surprised me a bit.

 

In comparing some of Wallace's grammar to the syntax charts I have seen a variety of discrepancies, so this is perhaps not unexpected. That said, some cases will be more exegetically significant than others. Perhaps it is viewed as almost a convertible proposition (Wallace's term) in the syntax charts. Wallace's footnotes are interesting on the discrepancies between various opinions.

 

Thanx

D


  • Ιακοβ likes this

Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i7 Kabylake
      12GB RAM                                16GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Home x64


#6 Ιακοβ

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 06:39 AM

That is what I figured, which makes me wonder who makes the diagramming rules. If people have wrote conventions about what is better, and which conventions people prefer.



#7 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 09:18 AM

Reed and Kellog in their advanced English studies book came up with the initial system upon which the current conventions are built. I wonder if they oughtn't to be adapted a bit for differing word order but it really depends what you want to reveal by diagramming. If you want it to reveal the subject and objects and indirect objects then changing the order of the sentence elements to a standard order will reveal that. But of course you've got to work it out first and as you can see in these examples, you can arrive at different results depending upon how you view the passage.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i7 Kabylake
      12GB RAM                                16GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Home x64


#8 Steve Lo Vullo

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 01:14 AM

Hi Jacob:

 

In both cases above, the question really isn't about diagramming rules, but about syntactical rules. In particular, your question seems to be how we can tell the difference between the subject and the predicate nominative. If we simply followed word order, we would make many, many mistakes, and not only with regard to subject and predicate nominative, but with many other constructions. Note, e.g., John 4:24. Certainly PNEUMA is not the subject, even though it comes first in word order, right? Or how about Hebrews 1:10? Is ERGA the subject because it comes before hOI OURANOI? Or Mark 2:28? Is KURIOS the subject, or hO hUIOS?

 

As Mithril suggested, I think you would profit by reading Wallace's treatment of this subject in his grammar (pp. 40ff.), especially his treatment of the "pecking order" (pp. 44-46).

 

The key to distinguishing the subject from the predicate nominative is the general rule that the subject will be the known entity. The known entity (subject) will be distinguished from the predicate nominative in one of three ways: (1) The subject will be a pronoun (except for an interrogative pronoun), whether stated or implied in the verb. (2) The subject will be articular. (3) The subject will be a proper name. The "pecking order" comes into play if both the subject AND the predicate nominative possess one of these three tags. I'll let you read Wallace's treatment when you get a chance, and I'll comment briefly on the two examples you give.

 

First, John 1:1. So which of the nominatives is the known entity here in the third clause? It is clearly hO LOGOS, since we find it expressed already in the first two clauses. In both cases it is the subject of the respective clause and there are no predicate nominatives to challenge it as the subject. It is already the known entity by the time we reach the third clause, and it has the article, so it is the subject. QEOS is explicative of hO LOGOS, the known entity, not vice versa. Often words are fronted in a clause for emphasis, which I believe is the case with QEOS here. See also Wallace's discussion of subset propositions on p. 45.

 

Second, 2 John 7: Once again, we must determine the known entity. That would be hOUTOS, since it refers back to the previously introduced hOI hOMOLOGOUNTES. So hO PLANOS and hO ANTICRISTOS are not the known entity, but rather explicate hOUTOS and its antecedent, hOI hOMOLOGOUNTES. The reason that a pronoun will be the subject is that it will normally refer to an entity already known. Wallace notes that personal, demonstrative, and relative pronouns function as the subject because they are a substitute for something already revealed in the context (a known quantity).

 

Hope this helps,

 

Steve


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#9 Ιακοβ

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 10:47 PM

I stumbled across an Accordance Greek Textbook module that also includes diagramming. It's for 1997, making it 20 years old now. Yikes!

 

accord://read/Stevens_Greek#4460







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