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Problems with Searching for the Polel forms of Hollow Roots

polel hollow roots D stem Hebrew

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#1 David Harris

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Posted Yesterday, 08:11 AM

Hello everyone, 

 

I am trying to find all of the attestations of hollow verbs in the D stem (Polel).  I am separating the roots that only occur once in the Polel from those that occur more than once, and charting each group separately.  But Accordance seems to be giving me conflicting information.  I have done a search for verbs in the Polel, and on my bar graph I learn that, for example, the roots נוב ,נופ, and נוס occur once in this form, and a search for each of these roots in the Polel form shows only one hit.  So all should be well.   However, the concordance clearly shows that these roots occur in the Polel more than once.   And a search for the verse references in the concordance bears this out.  

 

 

I fully admit that I am not an expert at Accordance searching.   I going about my searching incorrectly?  If so, how can I ensure that I am searching correctly in order to receive the correct data (If my default analytics did not show the concordance, I would have done a lot of work before realizing that I had made a mistake).  If not, can someone please tell me why Accordance is giving these conflicting data.  

 

Thanks!

 

David

 

 

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Edited by David Harris, Yesterday, 08:11 AM.


#2 Jordan S

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Posted Yesterday, 11:04 AM

The bar chart and the concordance are displaying two different types of data. The bar chart is the correct filtered information of [Verb Polel] that you are looking for. The concordance is displaying all occurrences of each HIT from your search. If you want to see the filtered occurrences, then you can shift-click the bar chart. Then, if you are wanting to save that data, I would highlight all the verses and Copy As>References.



#3 David Harris

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Posted Yesterday, 02:26 PM

Thanks, Jordan.  But my concern is the numbers on the bar chart:  The numbers indicate the number of times that the particular HIT occurs in the search text, yes?  I understand that the concordance shows all of the occurrences of each HIT from my search, organized by root.  Yet it was my understanding that the bar chart displays the same data, but in a different format.  Either way, I don't understand what the "1" next to the roots that I mentioned above is indicating in the bar chart unless it is the number of HITS.   Any clarification would be helpful.

 

Thanks,

 

David 



#4 Joel Brown

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Posted Yesterday, 02:39 PM

The concordance shows all instances of that inflected form throughout the entire text, not limited to your actual search results.  The (1) noted in the concordance is reminding you that only one of those provided excerpts was a hit of your search, but at this time it does not filter the list to show only hit verses.

 

Perhaps it would be good to ask, for what purpose are you using the concordance?  There is likely a better solution that can give you the results you expect.


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#5 Ken Simpson

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Posted Yesterday, 03:39 PM

Hi David, you might notice that the hit forms in the concordance are mostly not polel. They are from the correct lexeme, but if I remember correctly the concordance only searches for the unqualified lexeme, not the particular lexical form you are after.

 

If you do an analysis/word count totals - and then count them up, you can see the polel forms that occur once.

 

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As an aside, I immediately thought that I could do it by [COUNT 1]@[VERB polel] but this gave me only 2 hits, and I realised that I was searching for polel forms in hapaxes in the Hebrew OT. D’oh! Made me think that it would be nice to have a way to search for the count of the hit results. ie - Polel forms that occur once.


Edited by Ken Simpson, Yesterday, 03:55 PM.

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#6 David Harris

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Posted Yesterday, 03:50 PM

Hi Ken, Joel, and Jordan, 

 

Yes, after looking more closely, I realized that most of the forms in the concordance are not polel forms.  Between being sick and assuming that the concordance was displaying the hits information of the search, I had not realized that at first.  

 

I was using the concordance not for any particular reason, other than to be a quick way of viewing the search results in context.  But since the concordance is not the same as the hits results, it doesn't rally help me.  

 

But I have it straight now, and I thank all of you for your assistance. 

 

David



#7 David Harris

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Posted Yesterday, 04:04 PM

Actually, I do have what I hope is the last question on this topic:  As you can see in the bar chart, the root חול is listed as occurring once as a polel, yet when I do the search in the search bar, I get two hits:  Psalm 88:7 and Judges 21:23.  I know that there is some indecision about these forms in the scholarly literature, and some have suggested emendation for at least one of these forms.  But as they are pointed, they are both Polel.  Any idea as to why the results are different between the search and the bar graph?

 

Thanks, 

 

David



#8 Jordan S

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Posted Yesterday, 04:24 PM

The difference is between the HMT-W4 (2 hits; Judg 21:23; Ps 87:7) and the BHS-T (1 hit; Judg 21:23). From you screenshots, it looks like you were using both texts.



#9 David Harris

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Posted Yesterday, 06:40 PM

Ah, yes.  That makes sense.  I do my searching in BHS-T, but I export the text from HMT-W4 to avoid all of the strange arrows that appear around the BHS notes in my Mellel document, which are time-consuming to remove at times.  I forgot to switch between the texts.  

 

Thanks again, everyone!



#10 Joel Brown

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Posted Yesterday, 07:09 PM

Remember you can Copy As -> No Superscripts to have those symbols removed automatically.


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#11 David Harris

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Posted Today, 12:56 AM

Thanks, Joel.  :rolleyes:



#12 Ken Simpson

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Posted Today, 01:20 AM

Hi David, and remember that only the HMT text has the latest parsing database from Westminster-Groves. So, I would search HMT and export from HMT myself.

Enjoy.


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