Mellel + Bookends

[Michel Gilbert]

Hi again Martin,

 

Maybe you should report this problem to SBL, especially since many students are affected.

 

They might blame Word in Mac, but from my experience in transitioning to Mac, many times after I copied and pasted Hebrew from a Mac program that originated in Windows, e.g., Word, BibleWorks, Logos, etc., the kerning was an issue, sometimes only a dagesh, sometimes more involved. I also found the reverse – if I copied and pasted from Accordance into Pages, Scrivener, or Mellel, etc., the kerning was correct.

 

I’m not a programmer. But I wonder if the underlying programming languages have something to do with it.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

Edited April 5, 2017 by Michel Gilbert

[Martin Z]

I don't know if someone has reported this before or not. I'm definitely not the first one (nor the last) to bring this up.

 

I googled the problem about two/three years ago. Mac Word 2011 did not even support RTL. Many people were hoping that Mac Word 2016 would support, and it did. Also, giving the fact that the SBL Hebrew font looks perfect in Windows. Most people just blame MS for not making a good quality Mac version of Word, not the font.

 

Even for the Mac Word 2016, one of my classmates this semester had problem with the RTL text direction. He typed Hebrew in Word. After close the file and re-open it, the Hebrew consonants all exchange their positions... כתב would become בתכ...

 

But you're right. The problem could be with the font. But I don't know how to report though. Since so many people who know much more than I do had to live with it, I thought this is it.

[Michel Gilbert]

 

You can contact font support at https://www.sbl-site.org/educational/biblicalfonts.aspx

and describe the problem. I can’t imagine SBL would not be concerned with an issue affecting students. Good luck, and good night!

[Martin Z]

I've just emailed them, and got a reply from a staff after a few minutes (so efficient, just like Accordance  ). 

 

Here it is:

 

Dear Martin,

 

Yes, this remains a known issue. The problem is still the way that Word for Mac treats the OpenType tables for complex scripts. I have made Microsoft aware of the problem, and they assure me that they are working on a solution. Unfortunately, because the issue is with Word (or really, the Office suite in general), there is not much else that I can do in the meantime.

Other software in macOS (e.g., Mellel, Nisus Writer Pro, LibreOffice, Pages, etc.) remain better options until Microsoft figures out some of the intricacies of right-to-left scripts.

 

[piotrj]

thank you all for this interesting discussion!

it sounds for me like I have to stick with Mellel and Bookends for now...

 

piotr

[Michel Gilbert]

I've just emailed them, and got a reply from a staff after a few minutes (so efficient, just like Accordance  ). 

 

Here it is:

 

Hi,

 

I’m not convinced. If you copy Hebrew from Acc or Logos into Mellel, and change the font to Ezra SIL, Mellel doesn’t display dageshes correctly (try anywhere from the HB). So, by the same logic, the problem is with Mellel, which certainly understand the intricacies. Word for Mac doesn’t display SBL Hebrew correctly, but Word for Windows does. Mellel for Mac doesn’t display Ezra SIL correctly, but Word for Mac and Windows does. There just seems to be a difference in the way Windows and Mac treat the same fonts.

 

Even though I’m not convinced, I am open to correction. But if you check out Microsoft’s Open Type Specifications, and specifically, Advanced Typographic Extensions - OpenType Layout at https://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/TTOCHAP1.htm, they seem very aware of the complexities. As far as I can tell, there isn’t a Hebrew Unicode open type font that displays incorrectly in Word for Windows, and SBL Hebrew is the only one that doesn’t display correctly in Word for Mac.

 

Part of the reason I use Mellel and Word is because I prefer Ezra SIL. Without Word for Mac, I would have to switch to the Accordance Hebrew font.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

[Martin Z]

This is way beyond my knowledge now. I will keep my mouse shut and listen. 

[Michel Gilbert]

If you copy Hebrew from Acc or Logos into Mellel, and change the font to Ezra SIL, Mellel doesn’t display dageshes correctly (try anywhere from the HB).

 

I'm pretty sure someone (e.g., A.D.) will question this, so I'll probably have to clarify anyways. Here is a screenshot:

 

 

There are 4 possibilities to copy and paste from Acc and Logos, using paste special > text only, or paste > preserve formatting. From Logos, both types of paste look like the top of the screenshot. Paste special > text only from Acc looks the same, the second example. Paste > preserve formatting from Acc pastes as Helvetica 36, the bottom example. Now I grant that you can select it, and change it to Ezra SIL and a smaller size, and it will display correctly. But that's a lot of extra work compared to paste as text in word, and have it match your Latin and complex font settings automatically. (As an aside, you can type correctly with Ezra SIL in Mellel)

 

But all this just further confirms my point. In Windows, a Unicode Open Type font stripped of its formatting  always displays correctly, and selecting and changing to another Unicode Open Type fonts preserves that display. But in Mellel, the Ezra SIL Unicode Open Type font with text only does not display correctly. It only displays correctly with Acc formatting it on export. So, Windows and Mac seem to handle the same font differently. It's not just a Word problem. If it was, it is also a Mellel problem. But I think something else might be going on. It used to be that Mac and Windows fonts weren't compatible. Maybe there is still an underlying machine code that prevents Open Type fonts crossing platforms effortlessly.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

[A.D. Riddle]

Michel,

 

I copy as Unicode from Accordance, and Paste Special > Paste Plain Text in Mellel. I have used SBL Hebrew for several years and have had no problems at all with that font. That is the font I would recommend to Piotr.

 

I set Mellel's secondary font to Ezra SIL and I too experience the problem you described. I also see problems with some cantillation marks overlapping vowels. I have no idea why. I wish I could help.

 

I just tested the Accordance font and got some weird things too.

 

 

I posted your earlier question about RTL question marks on the Mellel forum. We'll see if someone has come up with a way to do what you want without tables or without putting question marks in odd places.

 

A.D. 

[A.D. Riddle]

By the way, what is a good way to insert images in forum posts? Seems like every time I need to do it, it takes a lot of time to figure out how to get it work.

 

A.D.

[R. Mansfield]

By the way, what is a good way to insert images in forum posts? Seems like every time I need to do it, it takes a lot of time to figure out how to get it work.

 

 

Click on "More Reply Options" at the bottom of the edit window. Then underneath the edit window, where it says "Attach Files," click on "Choose Files" and then "Attach This File." After it is uploaded, click the Add button to include the image at the insertion point. 

[Fabian]

Michel,

 

I copy as Unicode from Accordance, and Paste Special > Paste Plain Text in Mellel. I have used SBL Hebrew for several years and have had no problems at all with that font. That is the font I would recommend to Piotr.

 

I set Mellel's secondary font to Ezra SIL and I too experience the problem you described. I also see problems with some cantillation marks overlapping vowels. I have no idea why. I wish I could help.

 

I just tested the Accordance font and got some weird things too.

 

 

I posted your earlier question about RTL question marks on the Mellel forum. We'll see if someone has come up with a way to do what you want without tables or without putting question marks in odd places.

 

A.D. 

I mentioned this earlier, but I replay it here. 

 

If you compare the Ezra SIL and the Accordance Font, you'll see on the Accordance font a much bigger leading. This is by all Accordance font sets. For me it is unusable. Choose any other font like Helvetica or so, write a word in English hit return and write another word in English. You'll get the "normal" leading which you had set. Add a Greek or Hebrew word from Accordance and paste it in on the second line. Now change the font of the Greek or Hebrew to the Accordance font. You'll recognise that the leading has increased. 

 

If you now write an essay and you have in one line a word which is formatted as the Accordance font, this line springs out of the continuity of the leading like all other lines. Very ugly.

 

This must be solved.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

Edited April 5, 2017 by Fabian

[A.D. Riddle]

Fabian,

 

You are correct, you cannot adjust leading in Mellel, but I should point out something about the image I included with my post. I increased the size of the Ezra font 125% and the Accordance font I increased 150%, so they do not appear at the same size relative to each other or to the English language font that I was using.

 

I do not recall if you have much experience with Mellel, but when you set up the Secondary Font, you choose your script, your font, and also its size. So I can make the Hebrew smaller or larger relative to the rest of my text. Every time I paste Hebrew (or whatever secondary language I have chosen) into my document, it always pastes with the attributes that I have selected.

 

Here you can see Ezra and Accordance at 100% the the 12-point size I selected for my English text. So, the Accordance font does not have to "spring out" quite as dramatically as you make it sound.

 

A.D.

[Michel Gilbert]

 

Mellel support . . . To be fair, I'll give Mellel credit if and when they resolve the issue.

 

 

 

Mellel has resolved the issue politely, equitably, and efficiently. They were very pleasant to deal with.

[A.D. Riddle]

Michel,

 

There is a solution to your RTL question mark problem. See the last response at the Mellel forums

http://forum.mellel.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3331#p18230

 

I tried it using your example and it worked find for me.

 

A.D.

[Michel Gilbert]

I set Mellel's secondary font to Ezra SIL and I too experience the problem you described. I also see problems with some cantillation marks overlapping vowels. I have no idea why. I wish I could help.

 

I just tested the Accordance font and got some weird things too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi,

 

Mellel 3.5.3 just "fixed [among other things] an issue that caused bad ordering of Hebrew non spacing marks (Vowels, Cantillation marks etc) when pasting Hebrew as plain text"

(http://www.mellel.com/release-notes/), which has fixed the Ezra SIL paste issue. Now you can copy any Unicode Hebrew as plain text, select and change it to Ezra SIL, and it displays perfectly.

Here is the new look:

 

 

By the way, the Acc font still looks the same as A.D.'s screenshot.

 

 

Regards,

 

Michel

[KevinSoars]

I wrote the following request and then looked where might be the best place to post it. I found all your comments - some very clever stuff from people who certainly know what they are talking about! In contrast I am very much at the 'abc' stage or אבג so if anyone of you can help and has the time (much more difficult!) please contact me. Thanks.

 

“Is there anybody who would know Mellel well enough (and who would have a bit of time to spare - this is the difficult part!) to help me a little, ideally with a screen share? I am trying to make a ‘simple’ Table (simple for Mellel but not for me!) with Hebrew vocabulary on one side and the English equivalents on the other. I would be most grateful for any such help. Thank you, Kevin.”

 

[A.D. Riddle]

Kevin,

 

Have you looked at the Mellel Guide? You can find it in the Help menu. The Guide is a pdf, and the section concerning tables begins on page 167 (in the most recent version).

 

A.D.

[KevinSoars]

A.D.

 

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I looked at the guide and a Tutorial on Tables and I am still lost I am afraid. I can more or less do what I am trying to do but but it is taking what I sense to be too many steps (which I have to keep repeating!). I sense that Mellel is 'clever' enough to be able to make it much easier but I am missing/not understanding something!

 

Kevin.

[KevinSoars]

A.D. and All,

 I am very impressed with all the concern and work that has gone into answering the original question of this topic. (Accordance support whether from the 'office' or from the Forums really is excellent as many others have said before.) A.D. I am particularly impressed, if I may say so, that you even went to the trouble of contacting the Mellel Forums. May I ask how you go about joining their Forums? I have written to them but like Michel I am having to wait a long time for any response. I even tried to join their Forums but I am even waiting for a response to that request!

 

Kevin.

[piotrj]

A.D. and All,

 I am very impressed with all the concern and work that has gone into answering the original question of this topic. (Accordance support whether from the 'office' or from the Forums really is excellent as many others have said before.) A.D. I am particularly impressed, if I may say so, that you even went to the trouble of contacting the Mellel Forums. May I ask how you go about joining their Forums? I have written to them but like Michel I am having to wait a long time for any response. I even tried to join their Forums but I am even waiting for a response to that request!

 

Kevin.

 

 

I started this topic so I have to thank you all too! definitely support in this forum is just great. I really appreciate that.

and... Accordance + Mellel + Bookends just works! I recommend it absolutely. 

[A.D. Riddle]

Kevin,

 

I believe you just need to fill out his form to join Mellel forums. Is that what you did? It has been a while since I joined Mellel forums, so I cannot recall how long it took, or whether I did anything special.

http://www.mellel.com/forum-registration/

 

I just noticed you sent me a private message. I sent a response. There should be a quick solution to using Mellel tables.

 

A.D.