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#21 R. Mansfield

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:05 PM

I thought I understood that the SBL BibLit font replaced both SBL Greek and SBL Hebrew. Or did I misunderstand? 


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#22 Martin Zhang

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:11 PM

I thought I understood that the SBL BibLit font replaced both SBL Greek and SBL Hebrew. Or did I misunderstand? 

In my understanding, it does include both Greek and Hebrew fonts.

There are two problems with using the SBL BibLit font, as I see it.

1. If you use the SBL Greek and SBL Hebrew fonts, and you want to change only Greek or Hebrew font, it is very simple to do so. We can select all words in either SBL Greek font or SBL Hebrew and make change. But if we use the SBL BibLit font, I don't know how to change the font for only Greek or Hebrew.

2. SBL BibLit looks the same as SBL Hebrew in Word. So they both have the same problem, that is, the vowels and accents do not align well with the consonants.

 

Therefore, I don't see any advantages of the SBL BibLit font that I can take by using it...


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#23 R. Mansfield

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:15 PM

I'm writing off the top of my head here, having not verified any of this... but I was under the impression that SBL BibLit was more of a true Unicode font containing multiple alphabets, and thus replacing the previous Greek and Hebrew fonts. The issue with alignment in my experience was not just in Word for Mac but Word for Windows as well (unless this has been fixed since I last tried). Thus, because of the deficiencies in the SBL fonts, many were still using Times New Roman, which has a very expansive character set, and this is also why we created our own Unicode font. 


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#24 Martin Zhang

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:23 PM

Let me give an example:

 

SBL BibLit in Mac Word:

Attached File  屏幕截图 2017-04-04 23.17.30.png   6.79KB   0 downloads

 

SBL BibLit in Win Word:

Attached File  2017-0.png   8.97KB   0 downloads


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#25 R. Mansfield

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:24 PM

Yes, definitely looks like it's been fixed in Windows and not in Mac yet. How many times have we seen similar over the years? :-)


Rick Mansfield

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Gear for Running Accordance:

 

macOS

2014 Mac Mini - 2.6 Ghz dual core Intel Core i5, 8 GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, Sierra/OS X Server

2016 15" MacBook Pro - 2.9 Ghz Core i7, 16 GB RAM, 2 TB SSD, Sierra

 

Windows

2014 15.6" Acer R7-572 - 1.6 Ghz Core i5, 16 GB RAM, 256 GB mSATA, 512 GB SSD, Windows 10

 

iOS

2016 iPhone 7 Plus - 256 GB, Verizon, iOS 10.x

2016 iPad Pro (12.9") - 256 GB, Verizon, iOS 10.x


#26 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:26 PM

Hi again Martin,

 

Maybe you should report this problem to SBL, especially since many students are affected.

 

They might blame Word in Mac, but from my experience in transitioning to Mac, many times after I copied and pasted Hebrew from a Mac program that originated in Windows, e.g., Word, BibleWorks, Logos, etc., the kerning was an issue, sometimes only a dagesh, sometimes more involved. I also found the reverse – if I copied and pasted from Accordance into Pages, Scrivener, or Mellel, etc., the kerning was correct.

 

I’m not a programmer. But I wonder if the underlying programming languages have something to do with it.

 

Regards,

 

Michel


Edited by Michel Gilbert, 04 April 2017 - 10:33 PM.

Accordance 11.2.5 & 2.5:

iPad mini 2, 10.3.2
Mac mini, Sierra, 10.12.4
MacBook x32, SL, 10.6.8


#27 Martin Zhang

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:38 PM

I don't know if someone has reported this before or not. I'm definitely not the first one (nor the last) to bring this up.

 

I googled the problem about two/three years ago. Mac Word 2011 did not even support RTL. Many people were hoping that Mac Word 2016 would support, and it did. Also, giving the fact that the SBL Hebrew font looks perfect in Windows. Most people just blame MS for not making a good quality Mac version of Word, not the font.

 

Even for the Mac Word 2016, one of my classmates this semester had problem with the RTL text direction. He typed Hebrew in Word. After close the file and re-open it, the Hebrew consonants all exchange their positions... כתב would become בתכ...

 

But you're right. The problem could be with the font. But I don't know how to report though. Since so many people who know much more than I do had to live with it, I thought this is it. :(


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#28 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:47 PM

You can contact font support at https://www.sbl-site...licalfonts.aspx

and describe the problem. I can’t imagine SBL would not be concerned with an issue affecting students. Good luck, and good night!


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Accordance 11.2.5 & 2.5:

iPad mini 2, 10.3.2
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MacBook x32, SL, 10.6.8


#29 Martin Zhang

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 11:23 PM

I've just emailed them, and got a reply from a staff after a few minutes (so efficient, just like Accordance :D ). 

 

Here it is:

 

Dear Martin,

 

Yes, this remains a known issue. The problem is still the way that Word for Mac treats the OpenType tables for complex scripts. I have made Microsoft aware of the problem, and they assure me that they are working on a solution. Unfortunately, because the issue is with Word (or really, the Office suite in general), there is not much else that I can do in the meantime.

Other software in macOS (e.g., Mellel, Nisus Writer Pro, LibreOffice, Pages, etc.) remain better options until Microsoft figures out some of the intricacies of right-to-left scripts.

 


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#30 piotrj

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 01:40 AM

thank you all for this interesting discussion!

it sounds for me like I have to stick with Mellel and Bookends for now...

 

piotr



#31 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 08:43 AM

I've just emailed them, and got a reply from a staff after a few minutes (so efficient, just like Accordance :D ). 

 

Here it is:

 

Hi,

 

I’m not convinced. If you copy Hebrew from Acc or Logos into Mellel, and change the font to Ezra SIL, Mellel doesn’t display dageshes correctly (try anywhere from the HB). So, by the same logic, the problem is with Mellel, which certainly understand the intricacies. Word for Mac doesn’t display SBL Hebrew correctly, but Word for Windows does. Mellel for Mac doesn’t display Ezra SIL correctly, but Word for Mac and Windows does. There just seems to be a difference in the way Windows and Mac treat the same fonts.

 

Even though I’m not convinced, I am open to correction. But if you check out Microsoft’s Open Type Specifications, and specifically, Advanced Typographic Extensions - OpenType Layout at https://www.microsof...ec/TTOCHAP1.htm, they seem very aware of the complexities. As far as I can tell, there isn’t a Hebrew Unicode open type font that displays incorrectly in Word for Windows, and SBL Hebrew is the only one that doesn’t display correctly in Word for Mac.

 

Part of the reason I use Mellel and Word is because I prefer Ezra SIL. Without Word for Mac, I would have to switch to the Accordance Hebrew font.

 

Regards,

 

Michel


Accordance 11.2.5 & 2.5:

iPad mini 2, 10.3.2
Mac mini, Sierra, 10.12.4
MacBook x32, SL, 10.6.8


#32 Martin Zhang

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 09:45 AM

This is way beyond my knowledge now. I will keep my mouse shut and listen.  :rolleyes:


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#33 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 11:12 AM

If you copy Hebrew from Acc or Logos into Mellel, and change the font to Ezra SIL, Mellel doesn’t display dageshes correctly (try anywhere from the HB).

 

I'm pretty sure someone (e.g., A.D.) will question this, so I'll probably have to clarify anyways. Here is a screenshot:

Attached File  Ezra SIL in Mellel.png   168.14KB   0 downloads

There are 4 possibilities to copy and paste from Acc and Logos, using paste special > text only, or paste > preserve formatting. From Logos, both types of paste look like the top of the screenshot. Paste special > text only from Acc looks the same, the second example. Paste > preserve formatting from Acc pastes as Helvetica 36, the bottom example. Now I grant that you can select it, and change it to Ezra SIL and a smaller size, and it will display correctly. But that's a lot of extra work compared to paste as text in word, and have it match your Latin and complex font settings automatically. (As an aside, you can type correctly with Ezra SIL in Mellel)

But all this just further confirms my point. In Windows, a Unicode Open Type font stripped of its formatting  always displays correctly, and selecting and changing to another Unicode Open Type fonts preserves that display. But in Mellel, the Ezra SIL Unicode Open Type font with text only does not display correctly. It only displays correctly with Acc formatting it on export. So, Windows and Mac seem to handle the same font differently. It's not just a Word problem. If it was, it is also a Mellel problem. But I think something else might be going on. It used to be that Mac and Windows fonts weren't compatible. Maybe there is still an underlying machine code that prevents Open Type fonts crossing platforms effortlessly.

Regards,

Michel


Accordance 11.2.5 & 2.5:

iPad mini 2, 10.3.2
Mac mini, Sierra, 10.12.4
MacBook x32, SL, 10.6.8


#34 A.D. Riddle

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:47 PM

Michel,

 

I copy as Unicode from Accordance, and Paste Special > Paste Plain Text in Mellel. I have used SBL Hebrew for several years and have had no problems at all with that font. That is the font I would recommend to Piotr.

 

I set Mellel's secondary font to Ezra SIL and I too experience the problem you described. I also see problems with some cantillation marks overlapping vowels. I have no idea why. I wish I could help.

 

I just tested the Accordance font and got some weird things too.

 

33475287610_d11138ae15_b.jpg

 

I posted your earlier question about RTL question marks on the Mellel forum. We'll see if someone has come up with a way to do what you want without tables or without putting question marks in odd places.

 

A.D. 


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#35 A.D. Riddle

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:50 PM

By the way, what is a good way to insert images in forum posts? Seems like every time I need to do it, it takes a lot of time to figure out how to get it work.

 

A.D.



#36 R. Mansfield

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 01:10 PM

By the way, what is a good way to insert images in forum posts? Seems like every time I need to do it, it takes a lot of time to figure out how to get it work.

 

 

Click on "More Reply Options" at the bottom of the edit window. Then underneath the edit window, where it says "Attach Files," click on "Choose Files" and then "Attach This File." After it is uploaded, click the Add button to include the image at the insertion point. 


Rick Mansfield

Technology Evangelist

Accordance Bible Software

 

Gear for Running Accordance:

 

macOS

2014 Mac Mini - 2.6 Ghz dual core Intel Core i5, 8 GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, Sierra/OS X Server

2016 15" MacBook Pro - 2.9 Ghz Core i7, 16 GB RAM, 2 TB SSD, Sierra

 

Windows

2014 15.6" Acer R7-572 - 1.6 Ghz Core i5, 16 GB RAM, 256 GB mSATA, 512 GB SSD, Windows 10

 

iOS

2016 iPhone 7 Plus - 256 GB, Verizon, iOS 10.x

2016 iPad Pro (12.9") - 256 GB, Verizon, iOS 10.x


#37 Fabian

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:19 PM

Michel,

 

I copy as Unicode from Accordance, and Paste Special > Paste Plain Text in Mellel. I have used SBL Hebrew for several years and have had no problems at all with that font. That is the font I would recommend to Piotr.

 

I set Mellel's secondary font to Ezra SIL and I too experience the problem you described. I also see problems with some cantillation marks overlapping vowels. I have no idea why. I wish I could help.

 

I just tested the Accordance font and got some weird things too.

 

33475287610_d11138ae15_b.jpg

 

I posted your earlier question about RTL question marks on the Mellel forum. We'll see if someone has come up with a way to do what you want without tables or without putting question marks in odd places.

 

A.D. 

I mentioned this earlier, but I replay it here. 

 

If you compare the Ezra SIL and the Accordance Font, you'll see on the Accordance font a much bigger leading. This is by all Accordance font sets. For me it is unusable. Choose any other font like Helvetica or so, write a word in English hit return and write another word in English. You'll get the "normal" leading which you had set. Add a Greek or Hebrew word from Accordance and paste it in on the second line. Now change the font of the Greek or Hebrew to the Accordance font. You'll recognise that the leading has increased. 

 

If you now write an essay and you have in one line a word which is formatted as the Accordance font, this line springs out of the continuity of the leading like all other lines. Very ugly.

 

This must be solved.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


Edited by Fabian, 05 April 2017 - 02:23 PM.

Greetings

 

Fabian

 

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bug, which I describe.

 

Mac Air (13-inch, Mid 2013)

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Next time: I'll buy only one with Retina, and hopefully without a glossy screen. A faster CPU and more RAM.

 

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Accordance 12.0.6 and waiting on 13 (on iPad Pro with 3D touch)

 

iPhone 4S

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Accordance Mobile 2.5.3


#38 A.D. Riddle

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 07:01 PM

Fabian,

 

You are correct, you cannot adjust leading in Mellel, but I should point out something about the image I included with my post. I increased the size of the Ezra font 125% and the Accordance font I increased 150%, so they do not appear at the same size relative to each other or to the English language font that I was using.

 

I do not recall if you have much experience with Mellel, but when you set up the Secondary Font, you choose your script, your font, and also its size. So I can make the Hebrew smaller or larger relative to the rest of my text. Every time I paste Hebrew (or whatever secondary language I have chosen) into my document, it always pastes with the attributes that I have selected.

 

Here you can see Ezra and Accordance at 100% the the 12-point size I selected for my English text. So, the Accordance font does not have to "spring out" quite as dramatically as you make it sound.

 

A.D.

Attached Files


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#39 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 08:44 PM

 

Mellel support . . . To be fair, I'll give Mellel credit if and when they resolve the issue.

 

 

Mellel has resolved the issue politely, equitably, and efficiently. They were very pleasant to deal with.


Accordance 11.2.5 & 2.5:

iPad mini 2, 10.3.2
Mac mini, Sierra, 10.12.4
MacBook x32, SL, 10.6.8


#40 A.D. Riddle

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 10:19 PM

Michel,

 

There is a solution to your RTL question mark problem. See the last response at the Mellel forums

http://forum.mellel....1&t=3331#p18230

 

I tried it using your example and it worked find for me.

 

A.D.


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