Learning Biblical languages

[Emanuel Cardona]

A slightly different question:

 

What would be the easiest grammar to work with for a beginner between the following two?:

 

Ross' Introducing Biblical Hebrew

 

or

 

The First Hebrew Primer.

 

 

Also, which approach should a beginner use to start to learn Hebrew and Greek?:

 

Hebrew first, then Greek,

 

or

 

Greek first, then Hebrew (maybe learning one language first will help later on when learning another language?).

 

 

Or does it really not matter what language one learns first (and thus, maybe learning Hebrew and Greek at the same time is fine?)? 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Emanuel Cardona

[A.D. Riddle]

First Hebrew Primer is the easiest grammar for beginners, especially if grammatical terms are an obstacle. The authors of the primer intentionally limit grammatical terminology that does not obviously describe what is happening. As you progress beyond the primer, the lack of terminology might become a hinderance, but that is where Ross could be a helpful resource.

 

I would say it does not matter which language you learn first. Some might say Greek is easier because the alphabet more closely resembles ours, but you only spend a week or two learning the alphabet, so I am not sure if that is a real advantage. In my opinion, Hebrew is a lot more fun.

 

A.D.

[Emanuel Cardona]

First Hebrew Primer is the easiest grammar for beginners, especially if grammatical terms are an obstacle. The authors of the primer intentionally limit grammatical terminology that does not obviously describe what is happening. As you progress beyond the primer, the lack of terminology might become a hinderance, but that is where Ross could be a helpful resource.

 

I would say it does not matter which language you learn first. Some might say Greek is easier because the alphabet more closely resembles ours, but you only spend a week or two learning the alphabet, so I am not sure if that is a real advantage. In my opinion, Hebrew is a lot more fun.

 

A.D.

Excellent! Thank you for your help.

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Hi Emanuel,

 

  I am currently using FHP and while there are a number of things I really like about it - in particular writing in Hebrew - there isn't a ton of it in there but there is some and that's really good. I personally don't particularly like the non-grammatical terms because I more familiar with the other terms but I agree that it has its advantages, as A.D. points out. But I have also filed numerous corrections on it. I don't know the source of the errors - the original text or how it was computerized - or even if any great number of them are me - but I have noticed it. It seems to me unusually high in this volume. Just be aware of it. I'm sure updates will come with corrections.

 

  I don't know that it matters which way 'round you do it - Greek first or Hebrew first. Pick whichever that appeals to you.

 

Tx

D

[Julia Falling]

Well, I'm going to come down on the other side of this.  I took Greek first, having had Latin in high school (which was a very long time ago).  I love the language for its own sake as well as for the deeper understanding it gives me of the NT.

 

I took Hebrew 1, finishing up in May.  I worked very, very hard, got good scores on my quizzes, did all the assigned work.  I wanted to love it.  I didn't love it.  I got further in 1 year of Greek than I did in 1 year of Hebrew.  Additionally, what I learned in Greek helped me with Hebrew.

 

Dr. James White, apologist, and one who has taught Greek, Hebrew, church history, and apologetics, says the two things that have helped him most in defending the faith are Greek and church history.  He says it's nice to have Hebrew, but Greek is more important for what he does.  At least 80% of the OT quotes found in the NT are from the Greek Septuagint, not from the Hebrew Bible.

 

If you want to learn both, by all means do it, but I would recommend starting with Greek.  It's not just the alphabet.  Greek and English are both Indo-European languages.  Hebrew is Semitic.  Spanish is more like Greek than it is like Hebrew.  If you already knew Arabic, Hebrew would be the better place to start.  You don't by any change chance know Arabic, do you?

 

I plan on trying to further my study of Hebrew, but I will admit that it was the first class I have taken since my first year of physics (1970) that made me get a knot in my stomach, and I was only auditing.  I take my auditing very seriously!  

Edited August 1, 2017 by Julia Falling

[Emanuel Cardona]

Hi Emanuel,

 

  I am currently using FHP and while there are a number of things I really like about it - in particular writing in Hebrew - there isn't a ton of it in there but there is some and that's really good. I personally don't particularly like the non-grammatical terms because I more familiar with the other terms but I agree that it has its advantages, as A.D. points out. But I have also filed numerous corrections on it. I don't know the source of the errors - the original text or how it was computerized - or even if any great number of them are me - but I have noticed it. It seems to me unusually high in this volume. Just be aware of it. I'm sure updates will come with corrections.

 

  I don't know that it matters which way 'round you do it - Greek first or Hebrew first. Pick whichever that appeals to you.

 

Tx

D

Thank you for your helpful advice. Good to know about some of FHP's shortcomings.

[Emanuel Cardona]

Well, I'm going to come down on the other side of this.  I took Greek first, having had Latin in high school (which was a very long time ago).  I love the language for its own sake as well as for the deeper understanding it gives me of the NT.

 

I took Hebrew 1, finishing up in May.  I worked very, very hard, got good scores on my quizzes, did all the assigned work.  I wanted to love it.  I didn't love it.  I got further in 1 year of Greek than I did in 1 year of Hebrew.  Additionally, what I learned in Greek helped me with Hebrew.

 

Dr. James White, apologist, and one who has taught Greek, Hebrew, church history, and apologetics, says the two things that have helped him most in defending the faith are Greek and church history.  He says it's nice to have Hebrew, but Greek is more important for what he does.  At least 80% of the OT quotes found in the NT are from the Greek Septuagint, not from the Hebrew Bible.

 

If you want to learn both, by all means do it, but I would recommend starting with Greek.  It's not just the alphabet.  Greek and English are both Indo-European languages.  Hebrew is Semitic.  Spanish is more like Greek than it is like Hebrew.  If you already knew Arabic, Hebrew would be the better place to start.  You don't by any change know Arabic, do you?

 

I plan on trying to further my study of Hebrew, but I will admit that it was the first class I have taken since my first year of physics (1970) that made me get a knot in my stomach, and I was only auditing.  I take my auditing very seriously!  

Thank you, Julia. I appreciate your perspective. Learning Greek may be a good route for me to take considering that I speak both English and Spanish. I don't know Arabic, but I have a family friend who reads, writes, and speaks in Arabic. 

 

I had personally learned the Hebrew and Greek alphabets a few years ago and utilize lexicons, intermediate and advanced grammars, and syntactical resources, and have learned much. However, I want to actually take some time to actually learn the languages from scratch. That is where I am now.

[A.D. Riddle]

I used the print edition of FHP and it did not have all the errors that you describe. Sorry to hear the e-version is goofy. Nothing is more frustrating when you are first trying to get a grip on a language than typos in the grammar that make you second-guess what you think you know.

 

I am not sure how much advantage it is that Greek and English are both Indo-European. My guess is that most people do not learn other Indo-European languages--such as German, Portuguese, French--thinking it is easier because they are all branches on the same language tree. It turns out German grammar is a different animal than French grammar. Furthermore, I think it is when you have a working knowledge of English (or Spanish) grammar concepts that any similarities between Greek and English (or Spanish) become apparent. And then, you also have to watch out that those "similarities" do not lead to mistaken assumptions about how Greek works.

 

A.D.

Edited August 1, 2017 by A.D. Riddle

[Emanuel Cardona]

And then, you also have to watch out that those "similarities" do not lead to mistaken assumptions about how Greek works.

 

A.D.

This is definitely something that I always want to be very careful to not do. Back then when I was learning very basic things of both languages, I did them practically at the same time. I may reconsider and try working with both each and everyday.

 

If you were to learn Hebrew all over again, would you just start off with Ross', or FHP and then Ross?

Edited August 1, 2017 by Emanuel Cardona

[A.D. Riddle]

Both are introductory grammars, so they both cover a lot of the same ground. I think FHP provides an easier entry point to the language. Ross is a bit more technical, and thus more thorough as well. I like both. Do you already own both? Or are you trying to decide? Based on your earlier question about grammatical terms, my guess is that FHP would be more helpful to get you started.

 

A.D.

[Michel Gilbert]

Hi Emanuel,

Those are tough questions, and I admire the courage of those who answered. I don’t have an answer, just some thoughts.

Most learn Greek because it is more practical for church ministry, and I would say because most find the first couple of years of Greek easier than Hebrew.

It depends on your interests, and aptitude for learning languages. You are already bilingual. The more languages you know, the easier the next one is.

I would say though, that you need to have a realistic expectation of what it means to learn a language. A couple of years of Hebrew or Greek will help you understand arguments in technical commentaries, and better equip you to make good/better decisions about what the Bible means. But to make the best decisions, language alone won’t help you decide. You also have to know a lot about the history, literature, and cultures of the ancient near east for Hebrew, and etc. for Greek. So, if you want to learn one really well, you will have to spend most of your time on it.

In my own experience, I’ve been learning Hebrew for thirty years, and I’m just beginning to feel like I know it. Sailhamer told us in class that we should give ourselves five years to learn a language. He meant to the level of understanding technical arguments, and being able to consult original language reference works. What I mean by knowing Hebrew now, is that it is part of my daily walk, it is alive and life giving, I do not live on bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, and it is able to lead me to salvation in Christ. So I admit I know Hebrew better than Greek, and I love it more. But it also helps me to understand the NT when I read it.

I understand what Julia said. I think it takes longer to feel like your benefiting from Hebrew than from Greek. And I understand what A.D. said about how fun Hebrew is. He might disagree with me though that it takes so long to really know Hebrew.

If you find a good teacher, it doesn’t matter which grammar you use. He/she can use it to its fullest potential, and point out its mistakes or misdirections . For self study I would start with Basics of Biblical Hebrew Grammar. See the discussion at https://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/18510-opinions-on-biblical-hebrew-instruction-resources/?hl=pratico, which also mentions Ross at one point.

Regards,

Michel

 

 

Edit: I was looking for a famous quote by a famous classicist, something to the effect that at the end of his distinguished career, he felt he knew Greek as well as a nine year old Attic boy. Any Greek scholars, amateur or professional, know where I can find it? Thanks.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Michel Gilbert

[Emanuel Cardona]

I do not own any of them, and would like to make an informed decision as to which one to start with. So my decision relies upon what can be recommended on here. 

 

Thanks again for guiding me through this.

[Emanuel Cardona]

Hi Emanuel,

 

Those are tough questions, and I admire the courage of those who answered. I don’t have an answer, just some thoughts.

 

Most learn Greek because it is more practical for church ministry, and I would say because most find the first couple of years of Greek easier than Hebrew.

 

It depends on your interests, and aptitude for learning languages. You are already bilingual. The more languages you know, the easier the next one is.

 

I would say though, that you need to have a realistic expectation of what it means to learn a language. A couple of years of Hebrew or Greek will help you understand arguments in technical commentaries, and better equip you to make good/better decisions about what the Bible means. But to make the best decisions, language alone won’t help you decide. You also have to know a lot about the history, literature, and cultures of the ancient near east for Hebrew, and etc. for Greek. So, if you want to learn one really well, you will have to spend most of your time on it.

 

In my own experience, I’ve been learning Hebrew for thirty years, and I’m just beginning to feel like I know it. Sailhamer told us in class that we should give ourselves five years to learn a language. He meant to the level of understanding technical arguments, and being able to consult original language reference works. What I mean by knowing Hebrew now, is that it is part of my daily walk, it is alive and life giving, I do not live on bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, and it is able to lead me to salvation in Christ. So I admit I know Hebrew better than Greek, and I love it more. But it also helps me to understand the NT when I read it.

 

I understand what Julia said. I think it takes longer to feel like your benefiting from Hebrew than from Greek. And I understand what A.D. said about how fun Hebrew is. He might disagree with me though that it takes so long to really know Hebrew.

 

If you find a good teacher, it doesn’t matter which grammar you use. He/she can use it to its fullest potential, and point out its mistakes or misdirections . For self study I would start with Basics of Biblical Hebrew Grammar. See the discussion at https://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/18510-opinions-on-biblical-hebrew-instruction-resources/?hl=pratico, which also mentions Ross at one point.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

Thank you, Michel, for your helpful thoughts! I will consider your thoughts and come down with final decisions so I can get going on this long road.  

[Λύχνις Δαν]

 

Edit: I was looking for a famous quote by a famous classicist, something to the effect that at the end of his distinguished career, he felt he knew Greek as well as a nine year old Attic boy. Any Greek scholars, amateur or professional, know where I can find it? Thanks.

 

Would that I should get so far

 

Thx

D

[JohnABarnett]

Sailhamer told us in class that we should give ourselves five years to learn a language. 

 

John was a good scholar and a good man.  

[Julia Falling]

Thank you, Julia. I appreciate your perspective. Learning Greek may be a good route for me to take considering that I speak both English and Spanish. I don't know Arabic, but I have a family friend who reads, writes, and speaks in Arabic. 

 

I had personally learned the Hebrew and Greek alphabets a few years ago and utilize lexicons, intermediate and advanced grammars, and syntactical resources, and have learned much. However, I want to actually take some time to actually learn the languages from scratch. That is where I am now.

 

Emanuel – I want to commend you for your desire to learn and study the languages and encourage you in your studies.  You have at least a couple of advantages that I lacked when I began Greek – 1) youth! (don't underestimate how much more easily we learn when we are young), 2) you're already fluent in two languages (as Michel said).  I began at 56 with Greek, at 64 with Hebrew.  And I was fluent only in English.

 

Another factor is motivation.  If you want it badly enough you can do it.  I think that desire and hard work are enough to enable you to learn, given the good textbooks and resources we have in Accordance.  I don't think we have to be Einsteins – I'm not.  An aptitude for languages helps, but it's no substitute for hard work.  And for me, it was hard work but worth every hour I put into my studies.

 

You can try to tackle both languages at the same time, but if you find yourself overwhelmed, pick one and get comfortable with it, then go back and pick up the other while continuing to pursue the first.

 

Daily Dose of Greek and Daily Dose of Hebrew are useful.  I've used the Greek for years.  My husband was able to benefit from it in the second semester of Greek – we usually go over it together.  He reads and attempts to translate with some coaching before we watch the video.  Afterwards, we examine several English versions to see which gets the closest to what the Greek says.  And sometimes we find that the majority opinion is demonstrably wrong!  I haven't taken advantage of the Hebrew as I should but plan to dive in at the beginning of Ruth.

 

If you can find someone in your church or Christian community who is willing to coach you, I think you would find it helpful.  I really benefited from the discussion/debate that we had in Greek & Hebrew in the classroom (even though the schools where I audited were on a completely different page theologically).

[Michel Gilbert]

Hi Julia,

 

Even E.P. Sanders said,

 

"I don’t mean to say that I achieved fluency in Rabbinic Hebrew.  A long way from it.  I read slowly and sometimes needed help, even at the end of the year.  And now, 35 years later, my Hebrew is quite rusty, and I have to look up lots of words that I once knew.  As I indicated above, I shared the common American weakness of starting to learn foreign languages after I became an adult."

 

And, "By then I had learned THE MOST IMPORTANT LESSON OF MY LIFE: you really know what you learn for yourself by studying original sources."

 

In "Comparing Judaism and Christianity: An Academic Autobiography," 2003/4, E. P. Sanders, p. 11, and p.14 at https://web.archive.org/web/20040617054306/http://www.duke.edu/religion/home/EP/Intel%20autobiog%20rev.pdf

 

Regards,

 

Michel

[Julia Falling]

Hi Julia,

 

Even E.P. Sanders said,

 

"I don’t mean to say that I achieved fluency in Rabbinic Hebrew.  A long way from it.  I read slowly and sometimes needed help, even at the end of the year.  And now, 35 years later, my Hebrew is quite rusty, and I have to look up lots of words that I once knew.  As I indicated above, I shared the common American weakness of starting to learn foreign languages after I became an adult."

 

And, "By then I had learned THE MOST IMPORTANT LESSON OF MY LIFE: you really know what you learn for yourself by studying original sources."

 

In "Comparing Judaism and Christianity: An Academic Autobiography," 2003/4, E. P. Sanders, p. 11, and p.14 at https://web.archive.org/web/20040617054306/http://www.duke.edu/religion/home/EP/Intel%20autobiog%20rev.pdf

 

Regards,

 

Michel

 

That is actually encouraging!  Slow … I don't think anything I read can be read quickly!  Not my Bible, not textbooks, not Greek, not Hebrew, not theology, not even books I read for pleasure.  (I so enjoy a well-crafted narrative and don't want to miss the subtleties.)  Usually, I read a passage (or section of a book) and then turn around and immediately reread it.  Maybe I could read a newspaper quickly, but I rather just get my husband's synopsis.

[Emanuel Cardona]

Julia,

 

Very helpful and informative. Will take into consideration your suggestions. Thank you so much!

That is actually encouraging! Slow … I don't think anything I read can be read quickly! Not my Bible, not textbooks, not Greek, not Hebrew, not theology, not even books I read for pleasure. (I so enjoy a well-crafted narrative and don't want to miss the subtleties.) Usually, I read a passage (or section of a book) and then turn around and immediately reread it. Maybe I could read a newspaper quickly, but I rather just get my husband's synopsis.

Sounds like someone I know ... me.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Emanuel Cardona