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Hebrew Infinitive Absolute

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#1 Jonathan Kiel

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 07:32 AM

I am looking for all infinitive absolutes for the verb נתן used in combination with an imperfect נתן. I entered the search thread "‏=נתן ‎<FOLLOWED BY>‎<WITHIN 1 Words>‏ =נתן" because I thought that would be an easy way to double check that I found all of them. 

 

However, this search missed an instance of נתן followed by נתן. Any thoughts why? 

 

The first screen shot is from the search quoted above. Notice, it jumps from Judges 11:30 to 2 Sam 21:6. The second is a screen shot of 2 Sam 5:19 that has an instance of נתן followed by within 1 of נתן. Why did the first search miss that instance? It's not inspiring confidence that I've found everything I'm looking for. Am I doing something wrong?

 

 

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#2 Luke Bert

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 08:28 AM

I have noticed that my own user error is much more likely when I use the search bar than when I use construct searches. I generally only use the search bar when I am doing frequency searches. 



#3 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 08:38 AM

Your search looks good to me, though I noticed I got a few more hits when I eliminated the equals signs (=). I don't know why your search didn't pick up 2 Sam. 5:19.

 

If this is not a bug, I'm sure someone more competent than I in Hebrew will explain it to both of us shortly.


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#4 Jonathan Kiel

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 08:51 AM

Your search looks good to me, though I noticed I got a few more hits when I eliminated the equals signs (=). I don't know why your search didn't pick up 2 Sam. 5:19.

 

If this is not a bug, I'm sure someone more competent than I in Hebrew will explain it to both of us shortly.

Timothy,

 

When I remove the equal sign, I only get one additional hit. 

 

The equal sign (=) was there originally because I used a lexical search (command L) to search only for the Hebrew verbal form. I'm guessing your additional hit is Ezra 7:20, which has the Aramaic form נתן. Did you get any other hits? (I'm showing 11 verses when using the = sign and 12 without.)

 

Thanks...

Jonathan



#5 Jonathan Kiel

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 08:57 AM

I have noticed that my own user error is much more likely when I use the search bar than when I use construct searches. I generally only use the search bar when I am doing frequency searches. 

Luke, 

 

Thanks, if I use the construct 2 Sam 5 shows up. Must be something in the command string.



#6 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:00 AM

A construct search will find 2Sam 5:19 but I don't see what is wrong with the above in principle. That said the search results for a simple construct and a search box search vary by more than just this result, the construct missing the bracketed word cases that the search box case finds, yet finding others. I haven't figured out what's going on yet though. The construct picks up 2Sam 5:19 which you want and Hos 9:14, which I think you actually don't want anyway because it's not an infinitive,. That would be easy to exclude in the construct though. But that leaves open the question of the missing bracketed cases as Bracketed Words is set to include.

 

For the construct case I have 10 hits and I have 11 for the search case.

 

So while I think there is something up with the search box approach I suspect there is something up with the construct too.

 

Here are my hits :

 

  Search box : Num 8:16; 21:2; 27:7; Deut 15:10; Judg 8:25; 11:30; 2 Sam 21:6; 1 Kings 17:14; Jer 32:4; 38:3; Ezek 16:18

  Construct : Num 8:16; 21:2; 27:7; Deut 15:10; Judg 8:25; 11:30; 2 Sam 5:19; Jer 32:4; 38:3; Hos 9:14

 

Thx

D


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"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

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#7 Jonathan Kiel

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:02 AM

Okay... for what it's worth, I've narrowed the problem. The form in 2 Sam 5:19 doesn't show up when combining the "within" and "followed by" command in the search bar. I still can't tell you why, but just using "within 1" would have been enough for me and returns every example of נתן adjacent to another נתן. 

 

If someone can give us insight as to why those commands are incompatible, I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, I'll be pressing on.

 

Thanks,

Jonathan


Edited by Jonathan Kiel, 16 August 2017 - 09:03 AM.


#8 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:22 AM

I wondered if that might be related to this - followed by has issues in certain cases, though mostly where you are trying to do multiple <within ? > <followed by>. I don't know the details but this has been remarked on in other posts (https://www.accordan...ng/#entry100973). Yet given the simplicity of this search I am surprised. Perhaps the issue here is different. That said I would have expected the construct to work better than it does though so I don't really consider this an adequate answer, there being remaining questions to resolve.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : HP 4540s laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i5 Ivy Bridge
      12GB RAM                                8GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 11.1.6 and 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Professional x64


#9 Jonathan Kiel

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 11:02 AM

I wondered if that might be related to this - followed by has issues in certain cases, though mostly where you are trying to do multiple <within ? > <followed by>. I don't know the details but this has been remarked on in other posts (https://www.accordan...ng/#entry100973). Yet given the simplicity of this search I am surprised. Perhaps the issue here is different. That said I would have expected the construct to work better than it does though so I don't really consider this an adequate answer, there being remaining questions to resolve.

 

Thx

D

Thanks. Looks like I'll be staying away from the "followed by" command for a while...

 

-J



#10 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 10:00 PM

Ok, so notwithstanding my concerns about how this is missing some hits in a simple construct here's one that gets what you asked for inf/abs followed by an imperf :

 

Attached File  sc.jpg   23.82KB   0 downloads

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : HP 4540s laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i5 Ivy Bridge
      12GB RAM                                8GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 11.1.6 and 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Professional x64


#11 Douglas Fyfe

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 05:12 AM

 

If someone can give us insight as to why those commands are incompatible, I'd love to hear it. 

 

My only thought is because <followed by>, in your search command, is redundant. I don't understand how software works but maybe the robot who lives in the computer gets confused when told to refine a search beyond what is possible.

 

I too would like the real answer (although confused robots within would explain a lot of my computer issues). Sorry I can't help further.


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#12 Joel Brown

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 07:57 AM

In general, searching for repeated words in the main search entry box is not ideal.  We've sort of tweaked it a bit to often get good results, but I agree, when including the <FOLLOWED BY>, it does seem to skip 2Sam 5:19.  I would normally recommend the construct for any sort of repeated word condition, as Daniel has beautifully provided an example of.


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