Jump to content


Photo

Double Accusative | Object-Complement in Matthew


  • Please log in to reply
41 replies to this topic

#21 rwrobinson88

rwrobinson88

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 181 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peoria, Illinois
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X

Posted 29 October 2017 - 07:36 PM

Hits: Matt 1:21, 23, 25; 3:9; 4:19; 5:36; 7:9; 10:25, 42; 12:16, 33; 14:5, 30; 15:32; 16:26; 18:8; 19:4; 20:12, 28; 21:13, 24, 26, 46; 22:43, 45; 23:15; 26:73; 27:31; 28:14



#22 rwrobinson88

rwrobinson88

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 181 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peoria, Illinois
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X

Posted 29 October 2017 - 07:44 PM

Looking at the hits for the whole NT in Cascadia, there is a total of 241. When I do this search in all of the NT in the AccSyntax Database, I get 194 hits...

 

hmmm. Probably need to look into this one a bit more. But, I'm happy with Matthew for now. :)



#23 rwrobinson88

rwrobinson88

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 181 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peoria, Illinois
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X

Posted 29 October 2017 - 07:49 PM

Just peering into Mark has me shuttering. I just don't know if this double complement search is cut out for this database to be quite frank.



#24 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 832 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 30 October 2017 - 02:56 PM

The structure of the Accordance syntax databases in general can indeed account for double complement searches. In fact, it was made precisely for such things (and I use the Hebrew database for this kind of complex search all the time). 

 

I'm too busy to look into Greek right now, but why are you constructing these searches with the "within X" feature? Why not a predicate phrase containing two complement phrases that each specify a complement as a noun?


Edited by Robert Holmstedt, 30 October 2017 - 02:58 PM.

Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#25 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Ruby

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,438 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 30 October 2017 - 03:22 PM

I think there was at least one case, perhaps more, where the complement phrases were not adjacent. I would have to go back and check in detail.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1


#26 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 832 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 30 October 2017 - 03:33 PM

The search doesn't require adjacency (or shouldn't). In my Hebrew set up as I describe it, there are many non-adjacent complements. 

 

I was just looking at the Greek trees and think that there might be a different in the nesting versus the Hebrew. That might account for the differences.


Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#27 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Ruby

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,438 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 30 October 2017 - 03:43 PM

Ok that's good to know - I guess I was never sure of that. Let me take the test query I have and try removing it and see what happens.

 

Do you have a couple of Hebrew examples I could compare with the Greek ? It would probably be good for my Hebrew to figure it out for myself but it might not be so good for validation purposes :)

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1


#28 rwrobinson88

rwrobinson88

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 181 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peoria, Illinois
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X

Posted 30 October 2017 - 06:30 PM

I was getting compounded complements back as hits. e.g., Matt 5:17

 

So, I had to negate conjunctions and particles which required using the within.


Edited by RyanWRobinson, 30 October 2017 - 06:31 PM.


#29 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Ruby

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,438 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 30 October 2017 - 11:12 PM

I had a look at this and I can see what you mean. I tried doing a search for such compounds and removing them but that is no easier.

 

I think there may be a case to have another radio button on the Composite Phrase to select or not the Compound Composite, in the Phrase Structure section. That way you could have four choices - One segment, All segments, Contiguous and Compound. Ideally these wouldn't be either or but choose the ones you want. Or perhaps something similar - not quite sure my suggestion their exactly fits the architecture.

 

thx

D


Edited by דָנִיאֶל, 30 October 2017 - 11:27 PM.

Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1


#30 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 832 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 31 October 2017 - 07:27 AM

Strange. My double comp search is not confused by compound comps. Of course they are included in the hits, but not with themselves counted as separate comps -- they are counted as one distinct from the other part of the "double" comp in the search. I don't have access to the tagging of the NT, so I can't sort out the differences. Sorry.

 

edit -- ok, that's not correct. Now I see that some of the hits are, in fact, compounds. That's not useful. I'll have to report this -- I think the radio button or the ability to negate (as in some of the morph screens) is necessary.

 

דָּנִיאֵל, 

 

Do you want specific verses or a screenshot, or my workspace (which I believe is already uploaded to the syntax workspaces somewhere in the Accordance site)?


Edited by Robert Holmstedt, 31 October 2017 - 07:35 AM.

  • rwrobinson88 likes this
Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#31 Michel Gilbert

Michel Gilbert

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,198 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS, Android

Posted 31 October 2017 - 08:28 AM

Hi Robert,

 

Just for fun, how about a related search to find all the examples of hendiadys/merism in predicate phrases? I know I could do it myself (later, when I'm not so busy), but I would be interested in your thoughts on the supposed one in Gen. 1:1, especially with the double את. I think a reexamination of this whole issue is worthy of a dissertation.

 

Regards,

 

Michel



#32 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Ruby

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,438 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 31 October 2017 - 08:41 AM

 

דָּנִיאֵל, 

 

Do you want specific verses or a screenshot, or my workspace (which I believe is already uploaded to the syntax workspaces somewhere in the Accordance site)?

 

Either works for me - the workspace is probably marginally more useful, but I can use either. I couldn't see it amongst the workspaces I built from your "Brief...UserGuide .pdf" and I built them all, nor is the term 'double complement' mentioned in the doc so far as I can see.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1


#33 rwrobinson88

rwrobinson88

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 181 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peoria, Illinois
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X

Posted 31 October 2017 - 09:07 PM

Robert

 

If you could throw it out there for the Greek side of things too, that would be great! 



#34 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Ruby

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,438 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:28 AM

Hi Robert,

 

Just for fun, how about a related search to find all the examples of hendiadys/merism in predicate phrases? I know I could do it myself (later, when I'm not so busy), but I would be interested in your thoughts on the supposed one in Gen. 1:1, especially with the double את. I think a reexamination of this whole issue is worthy of a dissertation.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

 

So I built the double comp search in Hebrew and Gen 1:1 came up, because of the issue with compounds I believe. Interesting. I had never thought of that as hendiadys. That said I haven't really studied it even in Greek. Hmmmm..... I suspect that many of these would be represented as compound complements and would be easy to find, particularly with an enhancement to the handling of compounds suggested above. But I'd have to play with it to see.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1


#35 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 832 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 01 November 2017 - 11:45 AM

Yes, the basic double comp search results in Gen 1:1 and 1:2, which is what drew my attention to the problem. By double-clicking on the complement itself you can choose single versus compound and it doesn't hit these two and many more -- the hits reduce drastically and as far as I skimmed were accurate.

 

I'm a bit scattered for too much of this at the moment, but I'm not following how this could identify merism, since that depends not on syntax but on specific lexical items (I'm avoiding the use of the phrase "word-pairs" since it is overused, quite inaccurately). 


Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#36 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Ruby

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,438 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 01 November 2017 - 12:12 PM

I guess I should have said that it would find candidates - there would be weeding. I don't know what else would be required to narrow it down.

 

I didn't realize we already had a way to see single vs compound. I'll look at that.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1


#37 Michel Gilbert

Michel Gilbert

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,198 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS, Android

Posted 01 November 2017 - 03:19 PM

 

I'm a bit scattered for too much of this at the moment, but I'm not following how this could identify merism, since that depends not on syntax but on specific lexical items (I'm avoiding the use of the phrase "word-pairs" since it is overused, quite inaccurately). 

 

Hi,

That’s what I was getting at - we analyze the hits, and decide if any are cases of merism. But who decides which lexical items are candidates? There doesn’t seem to be any syntactical clues, except ו.

It just so happens that in Gen 1,1, a highly touted case, את השׁמים ואת הארץ is different than השׁמים והארץ and ארץ ושׁמים in 2:4. So I wonder if syntax does play a role in negating merism.

FWIW, there are many reasons I think את השׁמים ואת הארץ is not a merism for the physical universe, even from Gen 1: יקרא אלהים לרקיע שׁמים , then יהי מארת ברקיע השׁמים , i.e., השׂמים are in השׂמים of verse one.

I think there could be a dissertation on the syntax of merism in the ANE languages - even to prove your simple point, "identifying merism depends not on syntax but on specific lexical items," and to determine whether syntax can negate it.

Regards,

Michel



#38 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 832 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 01 November 2017 - 05:45 PM

Dear Michel,

 

Until someone shows me a good theoretical argument to the contrary, I view merism to be a post-syntactic interpretation process.

 

In terms of valency (verb semantics plus syntax), I see no difference between "he created fish and plants" (obviously not a merism) and "he created the heavens and the earth" or "he created good and bad".

 

Robert


Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#39 rwrobinson88

rwrobinson88

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 181 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peoria, Illinois
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X

Posted 01 November 2017 - 05:55 PM

By double-clicking on the complement itself you can choose single versus compound and it doesn't hit these two and many more -- the hits reduce drastically and as far as I skimmed were accurate.

 

This changed the whole search! Simplified everything. I was able to create one search instead of three. And that one search was able to get one more hit that wasn't grabbed by the three. So, this is great! 

 

Thanks for telling us about the feature. This is why I came on here. I want to keep learning about the database and how to engage it through searching.



#40 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 832 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 01 November 2017 - 06:19 PM

Wow -- didn't think that'd be such a successful comment, but I'm glad. You're most welcome. 


Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users