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Verbs with Two Complements


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#1 Peter Bekins

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 09:54 AM

Two questions:

 

First, I put together a simple search for verbs in the Hifil Binyan that are governing two complements. When I simply ask for two complements within the predicate phrase it works fine:

 

[Predicate Phrase]

[Predicate]      [Complement Phrase]      [Complement Phrase]

[Verb: Hifil]

 

Next I wanted to exclude all the complements marked by prepositions, so in each complement phrase I specified that the first item should be a noun, definite article, or object marker:

 

[Complement Phrase]

[Particle (Object, Article)]

[Noun]

[Place = 1] 

 

After I run it like this, I am also getting hits where the verb governs a single complement but that complement is itself composed of a compound phrase, for instance

 

Gen 3:16 ‏הַרְבָּ֤ה אַרְבֶּה֙ עִצְּבוֹנֵ֣ךְ וְהֵֽרֹנֵ֔ךְ 

'I will in fact increase your pain and your conception'

(which BTW is a proper example of hendiadys, I forget who brought that up on a different post) 

 

I cannot figure out any way to exclude these. The problem seems to be that the NPs inside the coordinated phrase are treated as being at depth 0 themselves.

 

Second, when there are three items (A, B, C) in a construct, does search both directions literally mean both directions so that you only hit on A + B + C or C + B + A? Or does it look for every possible combination, like B + C + A or A + C + B?

 

Thanks!

Pete



#2 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 11:19 AM

Something rather similar came up a couple of weeks back in Greek I think. Not the same but similar.

 

I rebuilt your search and I see 3:16. I can get rid of it by adding a WITHIN 1 attached to both the Complement Phrases. The problem is that it excludes tons of your other hits also. I suspect it throws out a lot you might want to keep. My hits dropped from 818 to 114 with the WITHIN.

 

So next I tried putting a negated conjunction between the two phrases and set the WITHIN to 1-5. Interestingly 2:9 shows up because the WITHIN distance limit is too short. But again a dramatic reduction in the hit count, more so than before.

 

Gen 5:32 shows another interesting case in that the compound complement is of 3 parts, two connected asyndetically and two with a conjunction. Not sure whether you want that one or not.

 

Ok I'll give you what I have before disappearing down too many rabbit holes and see if it helps at all.

 

Thx

D
 

 

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Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#3 Peter Bekins

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:02 PM

Thanks Daniel, I will look at your ideas. I was hoping to do it without adding anything fuzzy (like WITHIN). 

 

Pete 



#4 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:15 PM

One other thing that came up in the other thread was the idea that a compound phrase could be excluded directly by use of a new option on the phrase. It exists on the Complement itself but not on the Complement Phrase

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#5 Peter Bekins

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:21 PM

One other thing that came up in the other thread was the idea that a compound phrase could be excluded directly by use of a new option on the phrase. It exists on the Complement itself but not on the Complement Phrase

 

Thx

D

 

"Could be" as in if they added this functionality in the future? This is actually what I was getting at originally. We need some precise way to interact with these compounds. Unfortunately, adding another check box adds to the complexity of the construct dialog.

 

Pete



#6 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:23 PM

I admit that I also don't like adding fuzzy items, like "within," in syntax searches. 

 

Pete, for future queries, please try attaching workspaces as screenshots or zipped workspaces. It saves me the time of reconstructing that you've done.

 

My search is attached. Rather than specifying "noun," etc., I simply negated PPs.

 

The problem seems to be that the phrase boundary is not being processed correctly, so that two items in the same compound phrase are registering as two comp phrases; this is also the problem behind the hits with compounds, as in Gen 3.16. I've turned this in to the programmers. 

 

 

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Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#7 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:26 PM

"Could be" as in if they added this functionality in the future? This is actually what I was getting at originally. We need some precise way to interact with these compounds. Unfortunately, adding another check box adds to the complexity of the construct dialog.

 

Pete

 

I asked for this feature in https://www.accordan...e-2#entry108263and Robert thought it a reasonable proposal but it went no further in that thread because it turned out for that case that the compound selection on the Complement was adequate. In this case I don't think it is.

 

But I don't know if this yet required if the phrase boundary issue Robert mentions above is dealt with.

 

Thx

D


Edited by דָנִיאֶל, 25 November 2017 - 02:27 PM.

Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#8 Peter Bekins

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:42 PM

Sorry Rob, I guess I have to learn how to export a workspace.

 

Did you run that search in 12.2? When I run it in 12.1.4 the first two hits are bivalent rather than trivalent:

 

Gen 2:6 ‏וְהִשְׁקָ֖ה אֶֽת־כָּל־פְּנֵֽי־הָֽאֲדָמָֽה

 
Gen 2:10 ‏לְהַשְׁק֖וֹת אֶת־הַגָּ֑ן
 
 
EDIT: figured it out, you used complement instead of place=1 so it seems that since את and גן are at the same level in the phrase they are counted like two complements. I see the phrase boundary problem clearly now.
 

I didn't negate the prepositions because that never works right for me, but I am glad to know the larger problem is being looked at.

 

Pete

 

Edited by Peter Bekins, 25 November 2017 - 02:47 PM.


#9 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:59 PM

Pete, just use “save as” in Accordance and name the Workspace. To upload to the Forum you have to compress it to a zip file, though. Screenshot might be simpler.
Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#10 Peter Bekins

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 10:35 AM

Has any progress been made on the phrase boundary problem? I have tried to do some double-complement searches again but I am having the same issues with two items in the same complement counting as a hit when I really want two separate complements.

 

Pete



#11 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 07:11 AM

Not that I'm aware of. Let's nudge it up.
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The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#12 Peter Bekins

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 02:01 PM

Thanks!






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