Bible Navigation for People in Recliners

[Johnny Cox]

This one thing has botheredd me for over 10 years.  So much so I have thought seriously of transferring my rights to another user.  I still have to use Olivetree or E-Sword if I want to get work done fast.  Accordance lacks one feature that kills work flow.  When I'm making my messages, at the end I have to make a Keynote and paste in many verses.  It is so tedious to do this in Accordance.  

 

What I want is simply one feature that ALL other Bible software packages seem to have.  A Bible navigator so I don't have to leave the mouse and type in the verses.  I want to click, copy, paste and repeat.  I don't want to have move back and forth from typing and clicking.  

 

Please put a thingamagigit in each window so I can just click book, chapter, verse.  I don't want to have to type it in. It would just open up in a sliding fashion and disappear when executed.  I bet this could added in one day by a developer.  I bet this has already been developed, but someone higher up is saying no to it for some "Steve Jobs Mac Purity Interface" reason.  I know what he is saying:  "Keyboarding is faster, you don't need a mouse, and you can move between aplications by blah blah blah"  

 

Yeah Yeah, but I'm a mouse first person and most people are like me.

 

We are fat.  We sit in recliners with our laptops above our bellies.  The keyboard is above our heads.  

 

Do you really want us to set our recliners up, type in the verses, then go back to the mouse?  Doing such a thing would more than likely cause us to burn a colorie.  Is that what this is?  Is accordance fat shaming us?  Are we too fat to use accordance? 

 

Please do the right thing and give us navigation.  Do it for fat people in recliners.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Johnny Cox

[Michael Hunt]

Accordance desktop currently does have the ability to navigate to any given passage by mouse only using the GoTo box on the navigation bar at the bottom of your chosen text. Using this allows you to select a given book and you then use the Vs and Ch triangles to navigate to the respective chapter and verse.

 

 

Admittedly this is not as intuitive as you may find it in the other software packages you mentioned as it is at the bottom of the text rather than at the top but Accordance isn't alone in being keyboard-centric. For example, the only way you can navigate the text in Logos using a mouse only is to select the show table of contents. I find that for the research purposes and complicated searches I use Accordance for doing so by the keyboard makes for a much speedier interface.

 

However, you are not alone in having called for this interface change to be made. At least two seminars I have attended have had participants ask for this to be added. One tip that was given to those who wanted a mouse-centric way of navigating the text was to use the Display --> List all Book Names. Depending on the size of your monitor you may almost fit in the full list of book names without having to scroll.

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Michael Hunt

[ukfraser]

Johnny, ever considered getting an iPad?

 

They are lighter and ideal for use on recliners next to your coffee pots. Think of the calories you would save holding a lighter device!!!!!

 

This reply is composed on a recliner, on my ipad next to my coffee pot. I only have to get my mbp out about once a week now.

 

;o)

 

But I have developed workflows that totally avoid keynote and PowerPoint!

Edited March 16, 2018 by ukfraser

[Alistair]

Workflows that totally avoid Keynote and PowerPoint! Shurely shome mishtake??

[Michel Gilbert]

+1

 

I am a mouse first person also; I think most are who came from Windows. Now I use a non-Mac mouse with SteerMouse. It's amazing how fast you can work with a mouse vs a keyboard at times. And, I'm a recliner, but on something more like a divan with pillows against the wall. My workflow is a bit different - a book, iPad, or Kindle in the left hand, and a mouse in the right, at least half of the time. So mouse navigation is important.

 

 Say I want to go to Isaiah 25,6. In Acc, BW, and L, it is two clicks to get to Isaiah. To get to chapter 25, 1 click in L, two clicks in BW, twenty-five clicks in Acc. To get to verse 6, scroll with wheel in L, two clicks in BW, six clicks in Acc. So in total, 5 clicks + scroll in L, 6 clicks in BW, and 33 clicks in Acc. Just imagine the same for Ps 119,119. 

 

So, it would be a great option. Little things like this also really help switchers.

[Johnny Cox]

I have an Ipad, but it is not an option for the recliner scenario.  You are still moving a hand to touch the screen, maybe two if you are holding it.  I don't want to have to move my hands to intereact with the computer.  One hand should be on the mouse, the other is fetching donuts.  Alas, the IPad thing won't cut it.  

 

Last resort if Accordance doesn't ad feature, will be to acquire harem to feed me and move the mouse while I just lay here.  Could be a severe financial investment and bad for my marriage, but at this point what options do I have?

[Solly]

Actually, I would like to see a voice command type of interface. Perhaps one exists currently as an Accessibility option on some systems. I must admit that one of my favorite movie scenes is Scotty interacting with a Mac in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkqiDu1BQXY

My first computer interaction was with a GE-215 computer via a model 33 ASR Teletype ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype_Model_33 ) so I am quite content with our modern equipment—but as one who watched every episode of the original Star Trek series live, I cherish the idea of total voice command.

 

Live long and prosper,

Joseph

[R. Mansfield]

What a fun thread this has been to read :-)

 

Johnny, I’m glad you’ve added a photo of yourself. It has added to my mental image of you in the recliner, possibly surrounded by a harem and a fuming wife. 

 

As for your feature request, I’m not one of the programmers (meaning I carry no weight here), but your request does seem like a reasonable one; and I have seen the “navigator” as you describe it elsewhere. For me, personally, I prefer typing the passage because it’s definitely faster, but who am I to argue with someone else’s workflow? 

 

And Joseph, as for the Star Trek idea of voice command, I do believe technology is getting closer. A few weeks ago, I began adding some “smart home” devices. It’s quite nice to say, “Hey, Siri, goodnight,” and have all my lights turn off and our hallway nightlight turn on. Our front porch light automatically comes on if we arrive home after dark--it’s as if the house is waiting up for us. 

 

It’s almost like living in the future. 

 

 

 

[Michel Gilbert]

Hi Rick,

 

I agree it is fun. And, it is not a frivolous request.

 

I actually don't think it is faster to type the reference, and if I had the time, I would challenge you to a race. In order to type the reference in Acc, you have to delete the existing one in the box or select it and type over it, type the reference (correctly), and press Enter.  I just challenged myself, and I think it is just as fast in the BW navigator, sometimes faster.

 

To many long time Windows users, the focus on the keyboard is quite alien. I'm still baffled by the Cmd-Shift-F4-4 Cartwheels backwards "shortcuts." Many who use Windows in business, etc. use keyboard shortcuts in MS Office, etc., but most of the rest use a mouse.

 

It's a small thing, but it would help. 

 

Regards,

 

Michel

[R. Mansfield]

I actually don't think it is faster to type the reference, and if I had the time, I would challenge you to a race. In order to type the reference in Acc, you have to delete the existing one in the box or select it and type over it, type the reference (correctly), and press Enter.  I just challenged myself, and I think it is just as fast in the BW navigator, sometimes faster.

 

I suppose I should have said “faster for me.” Again, I’m not arguing with anyone’s workflow--especially when it becomes muscle memory. 

 

One point though--in Accordance you don’t have to manually select or delete the current reference. All you have to do is hit the tab key to go to the Go To box in a search window. The current passage will automatically be selected, and you can just type in your new passage--using most Bible book abbreviations, too. 

[Michel Gilbert]

Thanks Rick, that is good to know, for whenever I type in a reference. But as it is, I rarely do. I would dearly love to look up verses in Acc, with the mouse, but it bottlenecks getting to the chapter. So I use BW and L for that workflow. 

 

Of course, I'm not trying to argue for the mouse, just saying that many use it. I use it with PopClip and SteerMouse, and can do many things faster than with a keyboard.

[Λύχνις Δαν]

When I first read this request I was surprised. It never even occurred to me. I just type the refs when I need to. I guess as a coder I'm more at home on a keyboard. On a tablet/phone a verse chooser grid is nice for sure, perhaps even mandatory with touch as your primary interface but on the desktop program I certainly haven't missed it on Windows or Mac. Maybe I just don't punch in as many references as you guys do.

 

I agree with Solly, voice interface is the way to go, but they have to do the voice analysis on-site offline.

 

That said I can certainly see that the feature would be useful.

 

Thx

D

[Timothy Jenney]

I suppose the feature could be added to the GoTo box, which already allows us to jump to a specific book. I envision some sort of cascading menus: select a book, then a menu opens beside it with the appropriate number of chapters, move the mouse to a chapter and the appropriate number of verses appears, then select the verse. It sounds like it would be easy to use a mouse to do it, but that's a lot of nested menus, a screenful, in fact.

 

Do you really think there are that many people who would use it? Would they prefer it to having some other feature instead?

 

Those are the questions our programmers always ask when they consider requests like this.

[Solly]

I have often had a moment of pause using the GoTo box because I was expecting a drop down book/chapter/verse selection system at that point—much like the iOS app. After I remember that the menu won't appear, I merrily type in the reference. A grid approach does not require much screen space and is exactly what I like on the iOS Accordance app.

 

-Joseph

[Michel Gilbert]

Do you really think there are that many people who would use it? Would they prefer it to having some other feature instead?

 

Hi Timothy,

 

I would answer, that if every other desktop Bible program (that I'm familiar with), including free ones, has this feature, there must be a demand for it. Even Eloquent on the Mac has it.

 

I also think that most on this Forum are long time Mac users who are used to the Mac way of doing things, with much more emphasis on keyboard vs mouse input, so the argument of little support/the majority would prefer a different feature is already biased towards a certain result, along with some associated eye rolling.

 

But, I do appreciate that Acc listens to me as one user.

 

And, no offense is intended.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

[Rich]

It's funny, I switched from Windows to Mac around 2003, so I don't consider myself an old school Mac user, but I've never thought of Macs as being more keyboard oriented than Windows! 

 

The suggested solution sounds like a neat feature.  Not sure I would use it, not that this matters a bit — I'm sure many would!  That said, the more I think about it, the more it grows on me. 

[Λύχνις Δαν]

This may sound mildly insane but I could imagine an interface for this like the grid on phones/tablets that could be responsive to mouse or arrow keys. Now, Acc currently has no interface like that so there's a bit of a paradigm clash for the desktop, but there are a variety of ways something like this could be done. For mouse speed you don't want it to take up the whole screen though (27" iMac here). It would also need to work for all texts, not just bibles, but all texts that have a notion of location or section. Would I use it ? not sure, but with a hotkey and arrow nav I really might. Mouse not so sure - part of that it due to frequent out-of-mouse-errors in my current config - but even so.

 

Of perhaps a zoomable map style thing, where you have a small image representing the area of the entire document and mouse over to show where the pointer is and then select and the main pain shows that region. I've thought about a nav based on maps for documents before now. Hmmmm.... various thoughts occur.

 

Thx

D

[ukfraser]

It's funny, I switched from Windows to Mac around 2003, so I don't consider myself an old school Mac user, but I've never thought of Macs as being more keyboard oriented than Windows! 

 

Interesting, I got a mbp about 10 years ago and only every plug in external keyboard and mouse if I’m using photoshop, curves in lightroom or entering scores in sibelius.

 

However, I can’t use a windows laptop without a mouse. I haven’t come across a windows box that comes anywhere near he usability of a trackpad on a Mbp. And have used windows laptops since 1990 starting with a tosh with a red and black screen, moving to a compaq running windows 368 (?) right up to my last box running windows 7.

 

Trackpad for me means I’m not looking for someth8ng on my recliner to run the mouse over. ;o)

 

But I do miss some of the windows shortcuts that are not available on a mac. Control space bar being one of my essentials in word.

 

So agree with you about them being equal in keyboard orientation. Well worth learning shortcuts.

 

;o)

[Michael Miles]

Speaking as an expert on the topic of fat people (6'2" - 280#) navigating Bible software from a recliner, I have to go along with this request.  I can manage to use the trackpad on my laptop, but Skeeter and Casey always want to snuggle in with me and cramp my access to the keyboard.  Casey is pretty good.  She just comes up to me on the arm of the recliner and waits for me to pick her up and tuck her under my left arm so I can fawn and fuss over her for a bit before I get back to work.  Skeeter likes to slide in along the right side of my laptop and from that vantage point creep in so that she starts to cover chunks of the keyboard, sometimes turning the laptop off.  Anything that I can do with just a trackpad helps me out.  My memory is shot, so memorizing keyboard shortcuts is a real knee-slapper around here.

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Michael Hunt]

I suppose the feature could be added to the GoTo box, which already allows us to jump to a specific book. I envision some sort of cascading menus: select a book, then a menu opens beside it with the appropriate number of chapters, move the mouse to a chapter and the appropriate number of verses appears, then select the verse. It sounds like it would be easy to use a mouse to do it, but that's a lot of nested menus, a screenful, in fact.

 

Do you really think there are that many people who would use it? Would they prefer it to having some other feature instead?

 

Those are the questions our programmers always ask when they consider requests like this.

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that yes many people would use it.

 

When considering that most of the time when I navigate to the Psalms it is with a specific one in mind (e.g. Psalm 23 & Psalm 121 are often ones I refer to when doing funeral services). I am sure others have similar use cases in mind.

 

Would I like to see this over other features? Well if you have plans to implement user defined outlines that can be toggled on and off in texts then no :-)

 

Siri integration also would be nice.

[DoosanMan]

I suppose the feature could be added to the GoTo box, which already allows us to jump to a specific book. I envision some sort of cascading menus: select a book, then a menu opens beside it with the appropriate number of chapters, move the mouse to a chapter and the appropriate number of verses appears, then select the verse. It sounds like it would be easy to use a mouse to do it, but that's a lot of nested menus, a screenful, in fact.

 

Do you really think there are that many people who would use it? Would they prefer it to having some other feature instead?

 

Those are the questions our programmers always ask when they consider requests like this.

 

I definitely would use it.   I was used to it on my other "three" Bible softwares and miss it.   

[Cincinnati]

I agree that this needs a creative solution. I was a bit shocked to see how  inelegant the approach is. It's a bible program and getting somewhere fast is a key usability function (not even a feature). Admittedly, typing works...but it's a big ask of the consumer these days. I would suggest some serious, creative thought be put into how to make it work with the least number of clicks/swipes/whatever. There should be a tablet/phone suitable method that perhaps is also available as an option on the desktop. This fits into my suggestion that there be much more swipe functionality on the tablet/phone side of things. One other sort of related suggestion is that the current location always be visible, embedded somewhere in the pane header. I have to look waaay down to the far right of my screen to see where I am in the text. theWord does this nicely listing location in one header. 

Hi Timothy,

 

I would answer, that if every other desktop Bible program (that I'm familiar with), including free ones, has this feature, there must be a demand for it. Even Eloquent on the Mac has it.

I also think that most on this Forum are long time Mac users who are used to the Mac way of doing things, with much more emphasis on keyboard vs mouse input, so the argument of little support/the majority would prefer a different feature is already biased towards a certain result, along with some associated eye rolling.

But, I do appreciate that Acc listens to me as one user.

 

And, no offense is intended.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

[R. Willis]

I don't know if this thread is being read, but put me in the same camp as the OP.  I would love that navigation feature.

 

Regards,

Roy

[Mark Allison]

My thoughts are that menus on mobile devices are nice for selecting a reference, because typing on a screen isn't as fast as typing on a keyboard. But typing a reference on a keyboard is easily 2-3 times faster than selecting a menu, regardless of how elegantly a menu is implemented. 

 

But speed may not be a priority for some people, and the expectation that mobile platforms will share features with desktop versions is understandable. 

[R. Willis]

My thoughts are that menus on mobile devices are nice for selecting a reference, because typing on a screen isn't as fast as typing on a keyboard. But typing a reference on a keyboard is easily 2-3 times faster than selecting a menu, regardless of how elegantly a menu is implemented. 

 

But speed may not be a priority for some people, and the expectation that mobile platforms will share features with desktop versions is understandable. 

I guess that may be true and I would have to try more to be fair.   Coming from Olive Tree and others, it is also a personal preference and not necessarily about speed for me, even though I can click pretty fast.  LOL!  Hopefully both can be implemented.