Jump to content


Photo

LXX vs MT-LXX? Search results


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 Julia Falling

Julia Falling

    Mithril

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,454 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Tennessee
  • Interests:Numerous!
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 23 March 2018 - 05:17 PM

Hey – I've only done a little with the MT-LXX, but did a search today that really confused me.  If I search the Rahlf's LXX for ἱλάσκομαι I get 11 hits.  If I search the MT-LXX for Greek, ἱλάσκομαι, I get 0 hits.  

 

What I want to find out is which Hebrew words are translated by ἱλάσκομαι, ἱλαστήριον, or ἱλασμός.

 

Do I actually  need to search for all the inflected forms?    

 

I did a search in the LXX for all the words (got 43 hits), ran the Analysis, then copied all the inflected forms into the MT-LXX search box within parentheses and separated by commas.  I got 47 hits.

 

Do I actually need to search for all the inflected forms?

 

 This is not an emergency.

 

It would sure be nice to have a Webinar that dealt with the MT-LXX!  Every time I attempt to use it, I end up confused.

 

This is what happens when a powerful tool is handed over to an amateur …


Julia Falling

13" MacBook Pro High Sierra Acc 12
mid-2017 3.5 GHz Intel Core i7 (2 cores)
16 GB RAM; 512 GB SSD

iPad Pro iOS 11
128 GB
iAccord 2.6

iPhone 8 iOS 11
64 GB
iAccord 2.6

Used for backup only:
Mac mini High Sierra Acc 12
late-2012 2.3GHz Intel Core i7 (4 cores)
16 GB RAM; 1.12 TB Fusion Drive

#2 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Mithril

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 23 March 2018 - 07:02 PM

Hy Julia,

 

  What you need is to do a search in the LXX in one tab for ἱλάσκομαι.

  Then open the MT-LXX Parallel in another tab and do [MERGE <LXX tab name>]

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#3 Julia Falling

Julia Falling

    Mithril

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,454 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Tennessee
  • Interests:Numerous!
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 23 March 2018 - 09:06 PM

Thanks, Daniel.  Should have remembered that.  I need to do one of these searches weekly whether I want to or not.  Then maybe I might remember.


Julia Falling

13" MacBook Pro High Sierra Acc 12
mid-2017 3.5 GHz Intel Core i7 (2 cores)
16 GB RAM; 512 GB SSD

iPad Pro iOS 11
128 GB
iAccord 2.6

iPhone 8 iOS 11
64 GB
iAccord 2.6

Used for backup only:
Mac mini High Sierra Acc 12
late-2012 2.3GHz Intel Core i7 (4 cores)
16 GB RAM; 1.12 TB Fusion Drive

#4 Joel Brown

Joel Brown

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 5,184 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows

Posted 23 March 2018 - 11:13 PM

Julie, the reason is straightforward, and should help you with MT-LXX searches in the future.  Being a tool, the words are all only inflected, so lexical searched by themselves won't find anything.  However, by [MERGE]ing in results from a text, Accordance is able to blend the inflected forms and locations and give pretty accurate results.


  • Julia Falling likes this
Joel Brown

By day: Consultant for Oaktree
By night: Freelance Trombonist and Private Instructor

#5 mgvh

mgvh

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 182 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maryland, USA
  • Interests:Archaeology, Photography, Biking
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Windows

Posted 24 March 2018 - 01:49 AM

Though he isn't exactly addressing your question, David Lang had two very helpful posts working with the MT-LXX Parallel HERE (and link at bottom to part 2).

 

I also just posted on my blog how I would go about answering your original question, Julia, using Accordance, BibleWorks, and Logos.


  • Michel Gilbert likes this

#6 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Mithril

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 24 March 2018 - 10:55 AM

Hey Mark,

 

  A couple of things from your post.

 

  1. The root issue in Deut might be worth raising for Acc to reconsider. I don't know how L and BW tag them but there may be an argument to consider separating the roots in the Greek. It's not a morph tag issue - the form is correctly tagged I believe. But they (L and BW) differ in the opinion about the verbal root from Acc. I was reading now in Muraoka's lexicon on the Septuagint. There could be enough daylight there. I'm not sure how I would handle it myself but it might be fore asking Acc to check their current view of this one. That said there could be no real case at all. How stems (in Acc verbal roots are really stems if I recall an older answer on this topic correctly) are determined is not a process I'm familiar with. (Add that to the list of stuff to learn I guess. :) )

 

  2. The comparison of function in your post is interesting. The main thing I cannot see how to do in Acc is how to get a concise summary list of the ways the Hebrew is rendered in Greek, the way you can in Logos and BW. Of course, all the caveats associated with word to word association apply but nonetheless auto production of Greek <-> Hebrew associations in this tool would have its value.

 

  Anyone know how ? If this is not possible in Acc it would be a nice enhancement.

 

  In case anyone is interested this is the workspace I use for hacking out queries on the the MT-LXX. It is set up with Hebrew on the left, and Greek on the right - ok, I now see how that seems backwards now, but I did this a long time ago before I had even the skerrick (which really should be skeric I feel :) ) of Hebrew I have now.

 

  Here it is doing Julia's query where only the middle and the right zones are of use:

 

Attached File  sc.jpg   146.41KB   0 downloads

 

  And here it is showing a specific translation of the word ἱλάσκομαι.

 

Attached File  sc.jpg   161.06KB   0 downloads

 

  The workspace is attached. It has a couple of other tabs for crossing things or looking up verses or such as you go.

 

Thx

D

Attached Files


Edited by דָנִיאֶל, 24 March 2018 - 11:43 AM.

  • mgvh and Michel Gilbert like this
Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#7 mgvh

mgvh

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 182 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maryland, USA
  • Interests:Archaeology, Photography, Biking
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Windows

Posted 24 March 2018 - 01:20 PM

Thanks, Daniel. You know Accordance better than I do!

As for Deut 21.8, yes, the morphological tagging is correct, but I think it's tied to the wrong lemma. (It is correctly connected to the root which is ἵλεως.)

The verb ἐξιλάσκομαι does occur 105x in the LXX, so the Deut 21.8 instance should be included w/ those rather than to ιλασκομαι. I'll send a correction to Accordance. (BibleWorks must be using the same system as Accordance since it does the same, but Logos has corrected it.)


  • דָנִיאֶל likes this

#8 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Mithril

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 24 March 2018 - 01:51 PM

Ooops - yes it's not the root - it's the lemma.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#9 Helen Brown

Helen Brown

    Emerald

  • Admin
  • 11,231 posts
  • Twitter:accordancebible
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:heart in Israel
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS, Android

Posted 24 March 2018 - 05:12 PM

If correction is needed, please send to Corrections. If it's tagging, we need to send it to the source of the tagging so it takes longer than fixing simple typos in tools.


Helen Brown
OakTree Software

#10 Joel Brown

Joel Brown

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 5,184 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows

Posted 26 March 2018 - 11:11 AM

Mark (and Daniel and others),

 

Don't forget that using the Analysis tab you can easily see how MT words were translated into LXX words or vice versa.  Just run your search, open the analysis, and drag in the MT-LXX Lex or MT-LXX Inflect options [Note: Both of these require owning the MT-LXX Parallel tool, which I believe the two of you have].

 

See:

Attached File  Screen Shot 2018-03-26 at 11.10.29 AM.png   330.91KB   2 downloads

 

You can also show it graphically in the Pie or Bar chart:

Attached File  Screen Shot 2018-03-26 at 11.13.33 AM.png   359.97KB   1 downloads

 

And of course, all information can be copied and pasted.  And yes, this can be done for any Greek or Hebrew search, including by root.


  • Julia Falling, mgvh, דָנִיאֶל and 1 other like this
Joel Brown

By day: Consultant for Oaktree
By night: Freelance Trombonist and Private Instructor

#11 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Mithril

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 26 March 2018 - 11:14 AM

Thanx Joel. That's what I couldn't find. I now recall having seen them before. Many thanx, D.


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#12 Michel Gilbert

Michel Gilbert

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,071 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Monet
  • Interests:heritage homes, antiques, gardens, fresh food, good coffee, live music, ויין אשר ישמח לבב אנוש (Ps 104,15)
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS, Android

Posted 26 March 2018 - 11:25 AM

Both of these require owning the MT-LXX Parallel tool . . .

 

And yes, this can be done for any Greek or Hebrew search, including by root.

 

 

Good to know, information like this helps me plan new purchases. Thanks.


Accordance 12.2.7 & 2.6.4

    Mac mini, High Sierra, 10.13.5
    iPad mini, 11.4

Android, 1.1.4 (9900)

    Huawei, Android 6.0.1


#13 mgvh

mgvh

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 182 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maryland, USA
  • Interests:Archaeology, Photography, Biking
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Windows

Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:33 PM

Mark (and Daniel and others),

 

Don't forget that using the Analysis tab you can easily see how MT words were translated into LXX words or vice versa.  Just run your search, open the analysis, and drag in the MT-LXX Lex or MT-LXX Inflect options [Note: Both of these require owning the MT-LXX Parallel tool, which I believe the two of you have].

 

See:

attachicon.gifScreen Shot 2018-03-26 at 11.10.29 AM.png

 

You can also show it graphically in the Pie or Bar chart:

attachicon.gifScreen Shot 2018-03-26 at 11.13.33 AM.png

 

And of course, all information can be copied and pasted.  And yes, this can be done for any Greek or Hebrew search, including by root.

Thank you, Joel! This is exactly what I was trying to accomplish, but I wasn't aware of that MTLXX Lex option for customizing the results. I had to go back and seriously update my blog posthttps://bibleandtech...nslated-by.html, and now Accordance rises to the top! Thanks again.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users