Jump to content


Photo

Stop treating prefixes and suffixes as separate words in Hebrew


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#21 jarcher

jarcher

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 606 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Dakota
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 07 September 2018 - 08:17 AM

TYA, would something like this help you?

 

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2018-09-07 at 8.24.57 AM.png   480.76KB   0 downloads


  • Timothy Jenney likes this

#22 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Ruby

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,412 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 07 September 2018 - 08:19 AM

Hi TYA, You cannot actually do a search in two steps like you tried. What happened is that the second search was run as an entirely new search. It hit an earlier hit for "common" than the one you saw on the page. The issue of a search in page (what is currently on-screen) has come up before but no such feature exists. If you want to search for ܐܶܢܳܐ in Syriac and common in English then after doing the first search go back up to the search box and click + (at the far right end of the box and add another search field and switch that to English Content and enter common and hit enter. Then you will get :

 

Attached File  sc.jpg   193.17KB   0 downloads

 

Thx

D

 

 

 


  • jarcher and Timothy Jenney like this

Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1


#23 jarcher

jarcher

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 606 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Dakota
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 07 September 2018 - 08:23 AM

TYA, you'll notice that D's screenshot does include the word "common" in the next entry whereas mine does not.

 

The reason for this is because I limited my search to just paragraphs. That is, I told Accordance, "Only find these words when they occur together in a single paragraph."

 

You can see that from the little box at the top right corner of my search (marked in red) here.

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2018-09-07 at 8.24.57 AM.png   484.62KB   0 downloads



#24 TYA

TYA

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 543 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Panasonic Toughbook CF-31
    Windows 7 64-bit
    Intel I5 CPU (2.4GHz)
    8GB Ram
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Windows

Posted 07 September 2018 - 11:16 AM

But are you aware of the hits arrows at the bottom of the pane that allows you to jump to the next occurance of the searched word?

 

Yes sir, but I appreciate you pointing it out, since I am new at this.  You and Timothy are both correct: Accordance did find the word "common."  I was mistaken, because I assumed it would find the closest (proximity) occurrence, which was right there on the screen.

 

So I was wrong to say that Accordance wasn't finding the words.  But on the other hand, I think this still proves the need / value for a "Find on Page" apparatus, which would allow me to specifically search *from the current location in the document,* which is what I meant by "my typical two-step search process."

 

I did try using the option "Search within each Paragraph," thinking that this would limit my search for "common" to that region of the document, which would have essentially accomplished what I want.  I tried both "Search within each Paragraph" and "Search within each Article," but I was taken up to the top of the document in both case, so it would seem that this doesn't accomplish my need.

 

As to the "Find on Page" request, Accordance has already stated that this is on their list of updates for the next major release.  (Big thank you for that).



#25 TYA

TYA

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 543 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Panasonic Toughbook CF-31
    Windows 7 64-bit
    Intel I5 CPU (2.4GHz)
    8GB Ram
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Windows

Posted 07 September 2018 - 11:21 AM

If you want to search for ܐܶܢܳܐ in Syriac and common in English then after doing the first search go back up to the search box and click + (at the far right end of the box and add another search field and switch that to English Content and enter common and hit enter. Then you will get :

 

attachicon.gifsc.jpg

 

Thx

D

 

Dear Daniel, what am I doing wrong?  Your process seems like it would accomplish what I'm looking for, but when I do what you say, it still throws me up to the top of the document (i.e. first occurrence of "common").

Attached Files



#26 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Ruby

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,412 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 07 September 2018 - 11:25 AM

Please bear with my explanation here as I don't have Acc in front of me to do convenient screenshots.

 

The problem is the scope of the search. This is represented by the icon of the little paragraph to the right of the search box before the - in the circle. Check my screenshot and you will see that my icon there is slightly different from yours. Click once or twice on you icon there to change it so it matches mine and rerun the search.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1


#27 jarcher

jarcher

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 606 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Dakota
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 07 September 2018 - 11:29 AM

I think it is important to recall that every single search is a totally new search, will "undo" your previous search, and will therefore, always start you at the top of the document. This is normal Accordance behavior.

 

There isn't a "two step" search process other than the one that Daniel and I screenshotted - that is, using two search elements together.

 

As you noted, Accordance has stated they intend to add a find on page search.

 

However... I'll also add, that if you can get your head around this new way of search you'll be really pleased, I think, at how much more flexible and powerful it is.


Edited by jarcher, 07 September 2018 - 11:30 AM.


#28 jarcher

jarcher

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 606 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Dakota
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 07 September 2018 - 11:34 AM

Dear Daniel, what am I doing wrong?  Your process seems like it would accomplish what I'm looking for, but when I do what you say, it still throws me up to the top of the document (i.e. first occurrence of "common").

 

TYA, are you sure you didn't use an "OR" search in this screenshot? I'm not able to reproduce this result until I change the condition to OR instead of AND.



#29 TYA

TYA

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 543 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Panasonic Toughbook CF-31
    Windows 7 64-bit
    Intel I5 CPU (2.4GHz)
    8GB Ram
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Windows

Posted 07 September 2018 - 12:44 PM

Daniel, success!  You were right: I had to adjust that icon to "Search within each main article," and it then gave me what I was looking for--viz., the next occurrence of "common" in that part of the document.  Thank you for helping.

 

Jarcher, thank you also for the good suggestions.

 

To your remark about me wrapping my head around this process, let me humbly say, I couldn't fathom the benefit of *not* being able to drill down a search.  Thankfully, Daniel has provided a tentative way to do this for now, but the "Find on Page" function will be even quicker and more effective in Accordance.

 

One of the things that drew me to Accordance the most was the large (and growing) library of content.  Being able to drill down through a two-stage process (at least in regards to English searches, although I've already lodged my request / complaint in this thread regarding Hebrew searches, which still remains unresolved), is absolutely necessary.

 

Other programs I use that have the "find on page" utility are extremely valuable and efficient in this regard.  But thank you again, and thanks to all.

 

It is still the Hebrew search (for which I started this thread) that I'm most concerned about.  Would someone please confirm if my concern is true--that Accordance will somehow require double the work to find a Hebrew word, simply dependent on whether that Hebrew word happens to be in a text that is tagged versus untagged text.

 

Again, I'm fully aware that different software's do things *differently*.  That's clearly not the concern here.  I'm only concerned if Accordance has no way of accomplishing (what I think are) fairly basic tasks common to lexicographic research, in a way even close to the efficiency available in BW.

 

Based on what Accordance' Support has confirmed during my many email exchanges, I'm not missing something simple, and I just want to say in regards to why I've opened so many Feature Requests after coming over to Accordance...

 

I can 1) search Hebrew / Aramaic texts with more across-the-board consistency (reliability, per se) in BW, and 2) then review those search results within original language versions roughly *5 to 10 times* faster than in Accordance.

 

I could understand if it was maybe twice as fast in BW, but without exaggeration, for me to work through a list of 100 search results, analyzing them quickly in various Bible versions, when it comes to the number of clicks--the number of windows I have to open, and the need (in Acc.) to repeat the exact same process over and over again, I would have to spend roughly 5 to 10 times more in Acc. to accomplish the same thing.

 

I wouldn't gripe if this was something I only do every now and then, but I perform lexicographic analyses like this almost every week, sometimes requiring several hours because of the numerous versions / languages that I want to dig into, cross-reference, etc.  Sorry if it sounds too much like kvetching, but my sincere hope is that I'll find a better way to bridge the gap in Accordance.

 

Shalom all

Attached Files


Edited by TYA, 07 September 2018 - 01:00 PM.


#30 jarcher

jarcher

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 606 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Dakota
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 07 September 2018 - 12:55 PM

Someone confirm that my fear isn't true--that Accordance isn't going to make me have to double my work to find a Hebrew word, simply dependant on whether that Hebrew word happens to be in a text that is tagged versus untagged.

 

Can you dive into this a bit more on exactly what you mean by search results being different in tagged vs. untagged texts (which I think you mentioned previously as well)? I'm sure many of us are happy to help as we're able.



#31 TYA

TYA

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 543 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Panasonic Toughbook CF-31
    Windows 7 64-bit
    Intel I5 CPU (2.4GHz)
    8GB Ram
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Windows

Posted 07 September 2018 - 01:58 PM

Can you dive into this a bit more on exactly what you mean by search results being different in tagged vs. untagged texts (which I think you mentioned previously as well)? I'm sure many of us are happy to help as we're able.

 

Technically, no, because I as I said, it is only a "concern."  That concern actually arose from the Help menu when I was trying to follow Helen's suggestion to do an inflected search instead (something I still can't figure out how to do, and would appreciate help).  That Help page caught my attention when it said...

 

◾To find an inflected form in a tagged text, enclose it in plain quotation marks.

 

This immediately caused me to think that Accordance is implying that it has different search processes for tagged texts versus untagged texts.  I was asking if someone could confirm whether this was true or not, because I'm already frustrated as it is.  I don't want another layer of frustration.

 

All that being said, I want to return to what I can clearly and definitively point to as my frustration / challenge.  Please see the two screenshots attached.  Thank you

Attached Files


Edited by TYA, 07 September 2018 - 01:58 PM.


#32 jarcher

jarcher

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 606 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Dakota
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 07 September 2018 - 02:04 PM

TYA, in the second screenshot I cannot see the content behind the instant details box. What was searched for exactly there?



#33 TYA

TYA

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 543 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Panasonic Toughbook CF-31
    Windows 7 64-bit
    Intel I5 CPU (2.4GHz)
    8GB Ram
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Windows

Posted 07 September 2018 - 02:33 PM

Nothing.  I'm not sure how that string of characters got in there, but the left window pane was the search.



#34 jarcher

jarcher

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 606 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Dakota
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 07 September 2018 - 02:39 PM

Nothing.  I'm not sure how that string of characters got in there, but the left window pane was the search.

 

Maybe that is part of the issue. You must have search criteria in a research search pane.



#35 Timothy Jenney

Timothy Jenney

    Mithril

  • Accordance
  • 3,285 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:sunny Winter Haven, FL
  • Interests:a great cup of coffee, sci-fi, jazz and the blues, kayaking, camping, fishing and the great outdoors
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 07 September 2018 - 04:23 PM

Accordance does indeed use different kinds of searches in tagged texts. In tagged texts you can search for the lexeme (no symbols) , the root (+ [plus sign]), or the inflected form (character string) (double quotes before and after the string). To find a specific conjugation or declension, search for a lexeme and use a grammatical tag. Accordance can only search untagged texts for the character string, since tagging information isn't available for the other two kinds of searches.

 

It sounds to me like you are trying to use Accordance without using any of our training materials. That is going to be frustrating, as you will keep trying to search as you once did in BW. They are two different programs. They don't work the same way. Try this podcast for a basic introduction to Hebrew searching: http://www.accordanc...rewsearches.mp4


  • R. Mansfield and Solly like this
Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer
Academic Licensing Assistant

iMac: Late 2014 27" 5k display, 4.0 GHz quad core i7, 24 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD, AMD Radeon R9 M295X 4096 MB, macOS Sierra 10.13
MBP: Early 2011 17" MBP (8,3), 2.3 GHz quad core i7, 16 GB RAM, 480 SSD + 1 TB SSD, AMD Radeon HD 6750M, macOS Sierra 10.13
iPhone 7 plus: 128 GB, iOS 11.x

#36 TYA

TYA

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 543 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Panasonic Toughbook CF-31
    Windows 7 64-bit
    Intel I5 CPU (2.4GHz)
    8GB Ram
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Windows

Posted 07 September 2018 - 05:26 PM

Dear Dr. J,

 

Yes, I indeed need the training, and am excited to look further into that.  But one major problem was that I wasn't able to figure out how to do an inflected search, even using the Accordance Help menu.  However, jarcher very generously walked me through doing that, and I was able to perform this gratifying inflected search (attached).  I say "gratifying" because it returned search results with both prefixes and affixes of various types, across a more broad spectrum of literature than I've accomplished up to this point, AND including texts that are both tagged (e.g. BHS) and untagged (e.g. Delitzsch and Modern Hebrew NT).

 

Help me understand, if you say: "Accordance can only search untagged texts for the character string, since tagging information isn't available for the other two kinds of searches," then why does this search (attached) show texts that are both tagged and untagged?  (And of course, I obviously want the search to function that way).

Attached Files


  • jarcher and Timothy Jenney like this

#37 דָנִיאֶל

דָנִיאֶל

    Ruby

  • Super Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,412 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, Android

Posted 07 September 2018 - 06:49 PM

Hi TYA,

 

  I was going to suggest you try the search this way but Jeremy beat me to it. Good to see it works.

 

  I'm pretty sure the reasoning is as follows but others may correct me. I don't work for Oaktree and the below is based on observation.

 

  The thing to understand here is the default handling of the search in different cases. If tagging (this term has a variety of meanings actually but suffice to say here it means, the lexeme for the inflected word is known) is present then unquoted searches search on the basis of the entered word being a lexeme. (You will notice searching say HMT-W4 or BHS that if you do a word search you will see a pull down list of possible lexemes as you type you search word.) If you quote the search word then Accordance assumes you know you want that specific inflected form of the word and searches for that regardless of the text having tagging or not. Now for texts and modules which do not have tagging the only choice is that the search is for what you enter.

 

  Research queries have the difficulty that they can go across tagged and untagged modules, but they really just run a bunch of regular searches over the modules in the Research group you are searching. (At least that is my assumption about how they actually function. I haven't seen the code.) As a consequence if you do not quote the string some of the searches may be run as though they were looking for lexemes rather than inflected words and others may not. Where the string you entered is a lexeme that's all good and you get hits. Where it is not you won't. This is why the unquoted results hit entries in the untagged texts only. Likewise lexica and other tools are not tagged. So they also show hits in unquoted searches.

 

Thx

D


Edited by דָנִיאֶל, 07 September 2018 - 07:00 PM.

  • Timothy Jenney likes this

Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1


#38 TYA

TYA

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 543 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Panasonic Toughbook CF-31
    Windows 7 64-bit
    Intel I5 CPU (2.4GHz)
    8GB Ram
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Windows

Posted 09 September 2018 - 02:57 AM

Thank you Daniel, and thank you all for this extensive help.  I don't fully wrap my ahead around all of it (as Daniel said, not knowing the code, or exact process), but you've all helped point me in the right direction.  Thanks again for that.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users