Cannot search for אֲדֹנָי

[miketisdell]

When I type אדני into the search box, I am given the choice of either the un-pointed  אדני or  אֲדֹנִיand several name variants. However I am missing both אֲדֹנַי אֲדֹנָי and

 

If I choose the un-pointed אדני the search returns only the instances of אֲדֹנִי

 

The form אֲדֹנָי is the most frequently found in the Hebrew bible and arguably the most important (as it is used only in reference to YHWH. Additionally the form אֲדֹנַי  is also found in Scriptures but is also not easily searchable.

 

With the nekkud we have three separate forms of which only the first form is easily searchable.

 

 

אֲדֹנִי - my lord

 

אֲדֹנַי - my lords

 

 אֲדֹנָי - my Lord

 

 

A related bug, using an Israeli keyboard I cannot type the nekkud on the search command line. I can type the nekkud into Word and copy and past to get the search I want.

 

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Hi Mike

 

  On the keyboard front I use Ezra SIL keyboard and can type pointed text into the search box. I just switch keyboard at the OS using a shortcut. That way I can use the same layout in all tools.

 

  I can search for any of these forms by using quoted or quoted and = search strings.  

 

  "אֲדֹנַי="  for example finds the two occurrences of the second form. Likewise you can get the third form.

 

  Now this is all with the WORD search.

  With a LETTERS search I can just enter אדני and it will find 785 hits in the HMT. In ETCBC it will be a 780. I'll note that the HMT returns hits for אֶדֶנ among these as well.

 

Thx

D

Edited September 29, 2018 by דָנִיאֶל

[miketisdell]

Hi Mike

 

  On the keyboard front I use Ezra SIL keyboard and can type pointed text into the search box. I just switch keyboard at the OS using a shortcut. That way I can use the same layout in all tools.

 

  I can search for any of these forms by using quoted or quoted and = search strings.  

 

  "אֲדֹנַי="  for example finds the two occurrences of the second form. Likewise you can get the third form.

 

  Now this is all with the WORD search.

  With a LETTERS search I can just enter אדני and it will find 785 hits in the HMT. In ETCBC it will be a 780. I'll note that the HMT returns hits for אֶדֶנ among these as well.

 

Thx

D

The problem with using an SBL keyboard is all of the letters are on the wrong keys. I use the Israeli keyboard for all of my Hebrew typing on every device, and touch type in Hebrew. Moving the keys around would be a huge problem.

 

I can duplicate the search you provided by typing in another program word, notepad, etc... that will allow me to type the nekkud, but I cannot do it directly in Accordance. And typing unpointed should bring up all three forms so that I can choose the correct form.

 

 

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Yeah that's a pain. I use SIL everywhere so I don't have to work out different mappings. But then I don't use an Israeli keyboard - just a keyboard mapping on the US keyboard. So sorry no real answer for you there. hopefully someone else has.

 

On the search I am trying to familiarize myself more with Hebrew searching in Acc. I'm happy enough in Greek but the Hebrew is tougher to get my head around.

One thing I just noticed is that if I do a WORD search for אדונ I get all 773 hits which cover the various forms. I sort of stumbled on this when trying to disambiguate base/socket versus lord. I am not sure why this works but I suspect it's due to the chosen lex form. Perhaps someone can comment further.

 

Thx

D

[miketisdell]

Yeah that's a pain. I use SIL everywhere so I don't have to work out different mappings. But then I don't use an Israeli keyboard - just a keyboard mapping on the US keyboard. So sorry no real answer for you there. hopefully someone else has.

 

On the search I am trying to familiarize myself more with Hebrew searching in Acc. I'm happy enough in Greek but the Hebrew is tougher to get my head around.

One thing I just noticed is that if I do a WORD search for אדונ I get all 773 hits which cover the various forms. I sort of stumbled on this when trying to disambiguate base/socket versus lord. I am not sure why this works but I suspect it's due to the chosen lex form. Perhaps someone can comment further.

 

Thx

D

 

Yeah that's a pain. I use SIL everywhere so I don't have to work out different mappings. But then I don't use an Israeli keyboard - just a keyboard mapping on the US keyboard. So sorry no real answer for you there. hopefully someone else has.

 

On the search I am trying to familiarize myself more with Hebrew searching in Acc. I'm happy enough in Greek but the Hebrew is tougher to get my head around.

One thing I just noticed is that if I do a WORD search for אדונ I get all 773 hits which cover the various forms. I sort of stumbled on this when trying to disambiguate base/socket versus lord. I am not sure why this works but I suspect it's due to the chosen lex form. Perhaps someone can comment further.

 

Thx

D

 

I think you meant "letters" and not "word". If I do a word search, I only get 5 hits (i.e. only parts of a proper name). I am not even getting all returns of אֲדֹנִי

 

Additionally, I just realized that if I use a pointed search with letters, it still returns results for an unpointed text. and if I try to search with "words" it finds nothing.

 

Even searching for "אֲדֹנָי" produces no results.

 

The only way to search for אֲדֹנָי is to find an instance in the ext and select it and then right click to select search. It produces the following: "אֲדֹן ָי"  (note the sophit nun in the wrong place).

Even if I try to type it in exactly as it looks or try and copy this to another document and then paste it back, the search still fails. It appears that the only way to search specifically for this form is to first find an example and then select it and right click for search.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Actually I did mean WORDS search for אדונ . In the HMT-W4 I get 774 hits. Note the ו . I'm guessing that's a consonantal plene spelling. 

I'm going to read through the Hebrew search help again in detail and see what that reveals.

 

Thx

D

[miketisdell]

Actually I did mean WORDS search for אדונ . In the HMT-W4 I get 774 hits. Note the ו . I'm guessing that's a consonantal plene spelling. 

I'm going to read through the Hebrew search help again in detail and see what that reveals.

 

Thx

D

 

Are you also using windows? I am unable to duplicate your results with "words" I can with "letters"

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Yes on Windows 10. What version of Accordance are you on ?

 

Thx

D

[Λύχνις Δαν]

You can also do a root form search and that will find most of the hits fairly cleanly, in this case any way.

Either hold the Alt key and click Search and then choose Enter Root Forms and then enter the אדנ root or you can prefix the root with + manually.

 

Thx

D

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Hey Mike,

 

  So I poked at this a goodly bit.

 

  It appears this is primarily about the tagging of the words to their lexical form. There are three basic Hebrew bibles in Acc that I have - HMT-W4, BHS, and ETCBC. The first two basically tag most occurrences to אדונ . Virtually nothing it attached to ארני except אֲדֹֽנִי־צֶ֜דֶק . In the ETCBC (the HB out of the Netherlands from the what was WIVU and became Eap Talstra CBC) the tagging to lexical forms is very different. Here some 335 are tagged with אדונ and about 437 to אתני. All three ultimately have some 770 or so occurrences. Now ETCBC's counts of tie up fairly nicely with those indicated in the Concise DCH, אדונ said to 334 and אדני having 425. Now in searching ETCBC it is possible to simply type in אדני and get the expected hits. This makes sense now I see how the lex forms are linked up, as unquoted searches will search for hits via the lex forms.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Thx

D

[miketisdell]

Hey Mike,

 

  So I poked at this a goodly bit.

 

  It appears this is primarily about the tagging of the words to their lexical form. There are three basic Hebrew bibles in Acc that I have - HMT-W4, BHS, and ETCBC. The first two basically tag most occurrences to אדונ . Virtually nothing it attached to ארני except אֲדֹֽנִי־צֶ֜דֶק . In the ETCBC (the HB out of the Netherlands from the what was WIVU and became Eap Talstra CBC) the tagging to lexical forms is very different. Here some 335 are tagged with אדונ and about 437 to אתני. All three ultimately have some 770 or so occurrences. Now ETCBC's counts of tie up fairly nicely with those indicated in the Concise DCH, אדונ said to 334 and אדני having 425. Now in searching ETCBC it is possible to simply type in אדני and get the expected hits. This makes sense now I see how the lex forms are linked up, as unquoted searches will search for hits via the lex forms.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Thx

D

Is there not a way to a vowel sensitive search? Is this something that will be fixed?

 

This small pointing difference is theologically significant, and a vowel sensitive search should be possible.

 

[Mark Allison]

 

Is there not a way to a vowel sensitive search? Is this something that will be fixed?

 

This small pointing difference is theologically significant, and a vowel sensitive search should be possible.

 

 

I might be missing something here, but if you're looking for an inflected form of a word, you can go to "Search —> Enter Inflected Forms" on the menu bar, (or Cmd-J on a Mac, Ctl-J on a PC). 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Mark Allison

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Hi Mike,

 

  I've set up a workspace to play with this comparing HMT-W4 and ETCBC. There is another issue here. HMT-W4 in Acc marks bound suffixes (excluding simple inflections) as separate words. I was unable to get an INFLECT construct to find all the occurrences I was expecting. The problem is that the ָי suffix is treated as a separate in most cases. I do mean most because in some it isn't. The ETCBC by contrast chunks words differently. Thus an INFLECT search for אְַדֹנָי actually returns a bunch of hits - 458. When I take those hit verses and find them in HMT and mouse over אְַדֹנָי occurrences I can see that the suffix is not highlighted while in the ETCBC text it is.

 

  I'd be interested in understanding more of the linguistic background distinguishing these forms if you have a moment to explain.

 

  Finally, I do not know who is doing the tagging of lexemes, nor in fact the chunking of the bound suffixes. I know for example that the morphological tagging in the HMT and BHS both come from Groves Westminster and thus Accordance does not produce those.

 

  Finally again , one way to obtain a search in HMT (presumably BHS but I haven't tried) is this :

 

 

  Anyone with better uderstanding of the impact of implementation choices here who would like to leap in that would be great. I'm inferring a bunch from query results. It would be nice to know if I'm close.

 

Thx

D

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Hi Mark,

 

  An inflected search like "אֲדֹנָי=" against HMT-W4 only finds 39 hits. The same against ETCBC finds 458.

 

Thx D.

[Λύχνις Δαν]

So this has been interesting. Basically the point seems to revolved around whether אְַדֹנָי is taken to be a proper name (for God) or an inflected form of the regular noun for lord or master. It appears that ETCBC tags it as a name and that HMT does not. Note the tagging is not from Accordance but from the Groves Center. Unfortunately this means that constructing a search for inflected forms of the word lord/master to find the name of God in HMT will fail because in most cases it is not considered one inflected word form. In the few found this way (39) they are all construct forms of lord/master with one exception.

 

So the best way to get close is to use a construct search like the one I gave above. Comparing that with the simpler אדני@ [noun proper] against ETCBC shows 438 vs 437 hits. The additional hits in the HMT are Gen 19:18 and Lam 2:2 which are plural constructs. To balance the numbers ETCBC has one extra case tagged I would guess. Yep, Judges 13:8 which is spelled differently (אֲדוֹנָ֔י) (not sure why) and thus my search missed it.

 

I don't know how BW handled this case as I don't have it. I assume it was more like ETCBC. Is that so ?

 

Thx

D

[TYA]

I don't know how BW handled this case as I don't have it. I assume it was more like ETCBC. Is that so ?

 

D., I admit up front that I quickly scanned through this thread, so I'm probably missing your main points / questions, but since I also use BW, I wanted to help out quickly if I can.  Here is what I came up with a simple vowel-sensitive search (yes, an option in BW; but is it an option in Accordance to toggle?) of‎ אֲדֹנָ֤י.

 

Gen 19:18 and Lam 2:2 are both included in these results, but not Judges 13:8.  Also, note, adding a wildcard prefix didn't change the results.  If you want me to perform other searches, let me know.

 

Note: though I'm very new to Accordance, I want to reiterate my request for a truly-literal letter search--viz., one that is *not* dependant on how Accordance tags lexemes, roots, or what-not.  To be clear: I do appreciate Accordance' tagging, but I'm only asking here for an *additional* option to do a literal search that isn't dependent on the tagging (as in my previous threads).  Unless I'm mistaken, it seems that much of D.'s frustration / trouble here is based on the search mechanism relying on tagging.

Edited October 5, 2018 by TYA

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Thanx TYA. I wouldn't say I was frustrated here particularly - curious though. I was somewhat hampered by the fact that I did not appreciate fully the thrust of Mike's question initially. I think I get it now. This case I might add is peculiar, special, in that a particular inflected form of a word is itself apparently treated in one particular case as a wholly distinct word in some sense - as a name for God. The implications of this are revealed in this thread. Exactly how it should work is a matter for debate of course but that wasn't really my point in posting. I was mostly interested in revealing what was going on.

 

I don't know what the BW search is doing but the result is close to the results I was able to get in Acc once I better understood how the data was handled. One complication here is that a true letters only based search should actually get slightly confused and return some erroneous results. Now it may also be that the text itself uses this form only very rarely outside this special use (as a name for God) in which case a true letters only search supporting vowels would give basically a correct result. That of course would be happenstance of the text rather than a general property of the searches. That said, a vowel supporting LETTERS search would be good I agree.

 

TYA, in your BW search results above it appears that 420 cases are found in BHS/WTT (I don't know what text WTT is but that's ok). This disagrees with Acc. ETCBC by some 17 hits. Is it possible for you to post a list of the hit verse references so I can compare those and see what's going on ?

 

Thx

D

[TYA]

One complication here is that a true letters only based search should actually get slightly confused...

 

I know I'm interrupting technically, but no, to the contrary: what I mean by a "true letters only" search will *never get confused*; and that is why it is so valuable.  It outputs exactly what was input, leaving the user to interpret the results.  That, I believe we can agree on, is indispensable.

 

Of course, any software is "handling" the text in order to divide it up into roots, tags, lexemes, and the like (BW included); but the latter also has the true literal search, which I find indispensable--something worth adding to Accordance, no doubt.

 

That said, a vowel supporting LETTERS search would be good I agree.

 

Accordance, please take note.  Thank you.

 

I don't know what text WTT is...

 

"The WTT Hebrew text is based on the Michigan-Claremont Hebrew text, encoded in 1981-1982 at the University of Michigan under the direction of H. Van Dyke Parunak (of the University of Michigan) and Richard E. Whitaker (of the Institute for Antiquity and Christianity, Claremont Graduate University) with the financial support of the Packard Foundation. The Michigan-Claremont text is an encoding of Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, which in turn attempts to be a faithful reproduction of the latest hand of the Leningrad Codex. The text included in BibleWorks is the Hebrew text distributed with the Groves-Wheeler Westminster Morphology and Lemma Database (WTM) and has been edited over the years to bring it into greater conformity with the Leningrad Codex."

 

Is it possible for you to post a list of the hit verse references so I can compare those and see what's going on ?

 

Gladly.  Verses that have 2 hits within them are Exod. 34:9, 2 Sam. 7:19, Lam. 1:15, Ezek. 6:3, Ezek. 12:28, Ezek. 13:8, Ezek. 20:3, Ezek. 25:3, Ezek. 36:4, Ezek. 45:9, Amos 7:4, Mic. 1:2.  Also, Dan 9:19 has 3 hits within it.  Now, the following list of 393 verses listed below all have 1 hit each, all for a grand total of 420 occurrences.

 

Gen. 15:2

Gen. 15:8

Gen. 18:3

Gen. 18:27

Gen. 18:31

Gen. 19:18

Gen. 20:4

Exod. 4:10

Exod. 4:13

Exod. 5:22

Exod. 15:17

Exod. 34:9

Num. 14:17

Deut. 3:24

Deut. 9:26

Jos. 7:7

Jos. 7:8

Jdg. 6:15

Jdg. 6:22

Jdg. 16:28

2 Sam. 7:18

2 Sam. 7:19

2 Sam. 7:20

2 Sam. 7:22

2 Sam. 7:28

2 Sam. 7:29

1 Ki. 2:26

1 Ki. 3:10

1 Ki. 3:15

1 Ki. 8:53

1 Ki. 22:6

2 Ki. 19:23

Ezr. 10:3

Neh. 1:11

Neh. 4:8

Job 28:28

Ps. 2:4

Ps. 16:2

Ps. 30:9

Ps. 35:17

Ps. 35:22

Ps. 37:13

Ps. 38:10

Ps. 38:16

Ps. 38:23

Ps. 39:8

Ps. 40:18

Ps. 44:24

Ps. 51:17

Ps. 54:6

Ps. 55:10

Ps. 57:10

Ps. 59:12

Ps. 62:13

Ps. 66:18

Ps. 68:12

Ps. 68:18

Ps. 68:20

Ps. 68:21

Ps. 68:23

Ps. 68:33

Ps. 69:7

Ps. 71:5

Ps. 71:16

Ps. 73:20

Ps. 77:3

Ps. 77:8

Ps. 78:65

Ps. 79:12

Ps. 86:3

Ps. 86:4

Ps. 86:5

Ps. 86:8

Ps. 86:9

Ps. 86:12

Ps. 86:15

Ps. 89:50

Ps. 89:51

Ps. 90:1

Ps. 90:17

Ps. 109:21

Ps. 110:5

Ps. 130:2

Ps. 130:3

Ps. 140:8

Ps. 141:8

Isa. 3:15

Isa. 3:17

Isa. 3:18

Isa. 4:4

Isa. 6:1

Isa. 6:8

Isa. 6:11

Isa. 7:7

Isa. 7:14

Isa. 7:20

Isa. 8:7

Isa. 9:7

Isa. 9:16

Isa. 10:12

Isa. 10:23

Isa. 10:24

Isa. 11:11

Isa. 21:6

Isa. 21:8

Isa. 21:16

Isa. 22:12

Isa. 22:14

Isa. 22:15

Isa. 25:8

Isa. 28:16

Isa. 28:22

Isa. 29:13

Isa. 30:15

Isa. 30:20

Isa. 37:24

Isa. 38:14

Isa. 38:16

Isa. 40:10

Isa. 48:16

Isa. 49:22

Isa. 50:4

Isa. 50:5

Isa. 50:9

Isa. 52:4

Isa. 56:8

Isa. 61:1

Isa. 61:11

Isa. 65:13

Isa. 65:15

Jer. 1:6

Jer. 2:19

Jer. 2:22

Jer. 4:10

Jer. 7:20

Jer. 14:13

Jer. 32:17

Jer. 32:25

Jer. 44:26

Jer. 49:5

Jer. 50:31

Lam. 1:14

Lam. 1:15

Lam. 2:1

Lam. 2:2

Lam. 2:5

Lam. 2:7

Lam. 2:18

Lam. 2:19

Lam. 2:20

Lam. 3:31

Lam. 3:36

Lam. 3:37

Lam. 3:58

Ezek. 2:4

Ezek. 3:11

Ezek. 3:27

Ezek. 4:14

Ezek. 5:5

Ezek. 5:7

Ezek. 5:8

Ezek. 5:11

Ezek. 6:3

Ezek. 6:11

Ezek. 7:2

Ezek. 7:5

Ezek. 8:1

Ezek. 9:8

Ezek. 11:7

Ezek. 11:8

Ezek. 11:13

Ezek. 11:16

Ezek. 11:17

Ezek. 11:21

Ezek. 12:10

Ezek. 12:19

Ezek. 12:23

Ezek. 12:25

Ezek. 12:28

Ezek. 13:3

Ezek. 13:8

Ezek. 13:9

Ezek. 13:13

Ezek. 13:16

Ezek. 13:18

Ezek. 13:20

Ezek. 14:4

Ezek. 14:6

Ezek. 14:11

Ezek. 14:14

Ezek. 14:16

Ezek. 14:18

Ezek. 14:20

Ezek. 14:21

Ezek. 14:23

Ezek. 15:6

Ezek. 15:8

Ezek. 16:3

Ezek. 16:8

Ezek. 16:14

Ezek. 16:19

Ezek. 16:23

Ezek. 16:30

Ezek. 16:36

Ezek. 16:43

Ezek. 16:48

Ezek. 16:59

Ezek. 16:63

Ezek. 17:3

Ezek. 17:9

Ezek. 17:16

Ezek. 17:19

Ezek. 17:22

Ezek. 18:3

Ezek. 18:9

Ezek. 18:23

Ezek. 18:25

Ezek. 18:29

Ezek. 18:30

Ezek. 18:32

Ezek. 20:3

Ezek. 20:5

Ezek. 20:27

Ezek. 20:30

Ezek. 20:31

Ezek. 20:33

Ezek. 20:36

Ezek. 20:39

Ezek. 20:40

Ezek. 20:44

Ezek. 21:3

Ezek. 21:5

Ezek. 21:12

Ezek. 21:14

Ezek. 21:18

Ezek. 21:29

Ezek. 21:31

Ezek. 21:33

Ezek. 22:3

Ezek. 22:12

Ezek. 22:19

Ezek. 22:28

Ezek. 22:31

Ezek. 23:22

Ezek. 23:28

Ezek. 23:32

Ezek. 23:34

Ezek. 23:35

Ezek. 23:46

Ezek. 23:49

Ezek. 24:3

Ezek. 24:6

Ezek. 24:9

Ezek. 24:14

Ezek. 24:21

Ezek. 24:24

Ezek. 25:3

Ezek. 25:6

Ezek. 25:8

Ezek. 25:12

Ezek. 25:13

Ezek. 25:14

Ezek. 25:15

Ezek. 25:16

Ezek. 26:3

Ezek. 26:5

Ezek. 26:7

Ezek. 26:14

Ezek. 26:15

Ezek. 26:19

Ezek. 26:21

Ezek. 27:3

Ezek. 28:2

Ezek. 28:6

Ezek. 28:10

Ezek. 28:12

Ezek. 28:22

Ezek. 28:24

Ezek. 28:25

Ezek. 29:3

Ezek. 29:8

Ezek. 29:13

Ezek. 29:16

Ezek. 29:19

Ezek. 29:20

Ezek. 30:2

Ezek. 30:6

Ezek. 30:10

Ezek. 30:13

Ezek. 30:22

Ezek. 31:10

Ezek. 31:15

Ezek. 31:18

Ezek. 32:3

Ezek. 32:8

Ezek. 32:11

Ezek. 32:14

Ezek. 32:16

Ezek. 32:31

Ezek. 32:32

Ezek. 33:11

Ezek. 33:17

Ezek. 33:20

Ezek. 33:25

Ezek. 33:27

Ezek. 34:2

Ezek. 34:8

Ezek. 34:10

Ezek. 34:11

Ezek. 34:15

Ezek. 34:17

Ezek. 34:20

Ezek. 34:30

Ezek. 34:31

Ezek. 35:3

Ezek. 35:6

Ezek. 35:11

Ezek. 35:14

Ezek. 36:2

Ezek. 36:3

Ezek. 36:4

Ezek. 36:5

Ezek. 36:6

Ezek. 36:7

Ezek. 36:13

Ezek. 36:14

Ezek. 36:15

Ezek. 36:22

Ezek. 36:23

Ezek. 36:32

Ezek. 36:33

Ezek. 36:37

Ezek. 37:3

Ezek. 37:5

Ezek. 37:9

Ezek. 37:12

Ezek. 37:19

Ezek. 37:21

Ezek. 38:3

Ezek. 38:10

Ezek. 38:14

Ezek. 38:17

Ezek. 38:18

Ezek. 38:21

Ezek. 39:1

Ezek. 39:5

Ezek. 39:8

Ezek. 39:10

Ezek. 39:13

Ezek. 39:17

Ezek. 39:20

Ezek. 39:25

Ezek. 39:29

Ezek. 43:18

Ezek. 43:19

Ezek. 43:27

Ezek. 44:6

Ezek. 44:9

Ezek. 44:12

Ezek. 44:15

Ezek. 44:27

Ezek. 45:9

Ezek. 45:15

Ezek. 45:18

Ezek. 46:1

Ezek. 46:16

Ezek. 47:13

Ezek. 47:23

Ezek. 48:29

Dan. 1:2

Dan. 9:3

Dan. 9:4

Dan. 9:7

Dan. 9:15

Dan. 9:16

Dan. 9:17

Dan. 9:19

Amos 1:8

Amos 3:7

Amos 3:8

Amos 3:11

Amos 3:13

Amos 4:2

Amos 4:5

Amos 5:3

Amos 5:16

Amos 6:8

Amos 7:1

Amos 7:2

Amos 7:4

Amos 7:5

Amos 7:6

Amos 7:7

Amos 7:8

Amos 8:1

Amos 8:3

Amos 8:9

Amos 8:11

Amos 9:1

Amos 9:8

Obad. 1:1

Mic. 1:2

Hab. 3:19

Zeph. 1:7

Zech. 9:4

Mal. 1:12

Edited October 5, 2018 by TYA

[Λύχνις Δαν]

 

I know I'm interrupting technically, but no, to the contrary: what I mean by a "true letters only" search will *never get confused*; and that is why it is so valuable.  It outputs exactly what was input, leaving the user to interpret the results.  That, I believe we can agree on, is indispensable.

 

 

Better said. This is actually what I meant. You would get hits that you would have to interpret to ensure they were what you were after.

 

Many thanx for the list of refs. So I see these are the ones ETCBC has tagged as proper in addition to the hits you have in BW : Gen. 18:30, 32; Judg. 13:8; 2 Kings. 7:6; Is. 22:5; 28:2; 49:14; 50:7; Jer. 46:10; 50:25; Amos. 9:5; Zech. 9:14; Mal. 1:14; Psa. 22:31; 35:23; 73:28; 130:6; Dan. 9:9. Now I haven't checked in detail but they look like they are valid cases. Anyhow interesting.

 

Thx

D

[miketisdell]

So this has been interesting. Basically the point seems to revolved around whether אְַדֹנָי is taken to be a proper name (for God) or an inflected form of the regular noun for lord or master. It appears that ETCBC tags it as a name and that HMT does not. Note the tagging is not from Accordance but from the Groves Center. Unfortunately this means that constructing a search for inflected forms of the word lord/master to find the name of God in HMT will fail because in most cases it is not considered one inflected word form. In the few found this way (39) they are all construct forms of lord/master with one exception.

 

So the best way to get close is to use a construct search like the one I gave above. Comparing that with the simpler אדני@ [noun proper] against ETCBC shows 438 vs 437 hits. The additional hits in the HMT are Gen 19:18 and Lam 2:2 which are plural constructs. To balance the numbers ETCBC has one extra case tagged I would guess. Yep, Judges 13:8 which is spelled differently (אֲדוֹנָ֔י) (not sure why) and thus my search missed it.

 

I don't know how BW handled this case as I don't have it. I assume it was more like ETCBC. Is that so ?

 

Thx

D

 

Bibleworks is using WTM DB but it handles inflected searches a bit differently than Accordance, so this search is possible in Bibleworks.

[miketisdell]

D., I admit up front that I quickly scanned through this thread, so I'm probably missing your main points / questions, but since I also use BW, I wanted to help out quickly if I can.  Here is what I came up with a simple vowel-sensitive search (yes, an option in BW; but is it an option in Accordance to toggle?) of‎ אֲדֹנָ֤י.

 

Gen 19:18 and Lam 2:2 are both included in these results, but not Judges 13:8.  Also, note, adding a wildcard prefix didn't change the results.  If you want me to perform other searches, let me know.

 

Note: though I'm very new to Accordance, I want to reiterate my request for a truly-literal letter search--viz., one that is *not* dependant on how Accordance tags lexemes, roots, or what-not.  To be clear: I do appreciate Accordance' tagging, but I'm only asking here for an *additional* option to do a literal search that isn't dependent on the tagging (as in my previous threads).  Unless I'm mistaken, it seems that much of D.'s frustration / trouble here is based on the search mechanism relying on tagging.

 

 

Using Bibleworks 10 and typing .אדני on the command line returns 603 hits with all three forms; enabling vowel sensitive searches (bottom of the screen) and the right clicking the form ‎אֲדֹנָ֤י returns 420 hits.

[miketisdell]

Yeah that's a pain. I use SIL everywhere so I don't have to work out different mappings. But then I don't use an Israeli keyboard - just a keyboard mapping on the US keyboard. So sorry no real answer for you there. hopefully someone else has.

 

On the search I am trying to familiarize myself more with Hebrew searching in Acc. I'm happy enough in Greek but the Hebrew is tougher to get my head around.

One thing I just noticed is that if I do a WORD search for אדונ I get all 773 hits which cover the various forms. I sort of stumbled on this when trying to disambiguate base/socket versus lord. I am not sure why this works but I suspect it's due to the chosen lex form. Perhaps someone can comment further.

 

Thx

D

 

 

This is the same as a search on Lemma in Bibleworks; however, this includes אדניך, אדניו, etc...

[miketisdell]

Better said. This is actually what I meant. You would get hits that you would have to interpret to ensure they were what you were after.

 

Many thanx for the list of refs. So I see these are the ones ETCBC has tagged as proper in addition to the hits you have in BW : Gen. 18:30, 32; Judg. 13:8; 2 Kings. 7:6; Is. 22:5; 28:2; 49:14; 50:7; Jer. 46:10; 50:25; Amos. 9:5; Zech. 9:14; Mal. 1:14; Psa. 22:31; 35:23; 73:28; 130:6; Dan. 9:9. Now I haven't checked in detail but they look like they are valid cases. Anyhow interesting.

 

This is where a literal search on BW misses items i.e. Gen. 18:30 includes the prefix ל which changes the pointing slightly, but still ends in a qamats indicating YHWH.

 

While I understand why ETCBC tags this as a proper name, that is not how I would classify it. I see it as an honorific used specifically for YHWH.

[miketisdell]

Question for Accordance:

 

For those of use who do not have ETCBC but apparently need it to get around this issue with HMT-W4 searches, are there any discounts available?

[Helen Brown]

Sorry, no, it's a separately licensed database with attendant royalties.