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NIV11-GKE prhases do not exclude correctly in key searches


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#1 miketisdell

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 01:30 PM

When I try to exclude certain options from a key search, when there is a phrase rather than a word it is not excluded. In the following example: I attempted to search for all instances of H09048 (שמע) that were not translated as *listen* or *hear* and this worked correctly for all results that were composed of a single word, but results that were part of a phrase were not excluded.

 

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#2 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 01:38 PM

Try [key H09048]@-(listen, hear)

 

Thx

D


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Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

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Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
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#3 miketisdell

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 01:41 PM

Try [key H09048]@-(listen, hear)

 

Thx

D

 

That appears to be an "and" and provides zero results.

My search was closer.



#4 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 01:45 PM

Ok I forgot this is phrase tagged. Sorry. I suspect you'll need the *'s back I think. So perhaps :

 

[key H09048]@-(*listen*, *hear*)

 

EDIT: Actually that doesn't work really either as there are multiple tags with multiple keys on the phrases. Thus Ex 15:26 is not excluded which I guess it should be.

 

Hopefully someone more familiar with the tagging here and how it works can help. I will have to play more with this.

 

Thx

D


Edited by דָנִיאֶל, 04 December 2018 - 01:52 PM.

Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#5 miketisdell

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 01:52 PM

Ok I forgot this is phrase tagged. Sorry. I suspect you'll need the *'s back I think. So perhaps :

 

[key H09048]@-(*listen*, *hear*)

 

Thx

D

I don't think that will work i.e. there are some places where a single word (and not a phrase) should be in the results (For example "hear" in Deut. 6:4) but this result was not returned. I think your search is looking for places where both "hear" AND "listen" are found and there are none (which is expected).



#6 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 01:55 PM

I suspect then that I am not correctly understanding your aim. I thought you want to find all cases where H09048 was translated as something other than hear or listen, either in a phrase or as single word.

 

What exactly are you trying to find ? It sounds like you only want cases where it is translated as a single word and not as a phrase. Is that correct ?

 

thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#7 miketisdell

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 02:57 PM

I suspect then that I am not correctly understanding your aim. I thought you want to find all cases where H09048 was translated as something other than hear or listen, either in a phrase or as single word.

 

What exactly are you trying to find ? It sounds like you only want cases where it is translated as a single word and not as a phrase. Is that correct ?

 

thx

D

You understood correctly but your example appears to follow the following logic: H09048 and not (listen AND hear)

This results in zero hits because there is no case where a verse has both "listen" and "hear"; if the AND could be changed to OR it would work.

 

In my example the logic is: H09048 and (not listen AND not hear)


Edited by miketisdell, 04 December 2018 - 02:58 PM.


#8 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 03:19 PM

I actually got a bunch of hits with [key H09048]@-(listen, hear) and with [key H09048]@-(*listen*, *hear*).

But I then noticed issues like Ex 15:26 not being excluded. I did see Deut 6:4 was missing but I haven't investigated it.

 

I will have to look more later to be able to offer more on this.

 

Thx

D


  • miketisdell likes this
Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#9 miketisdell

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 03:37 PM

I actually got a bunch of hits with [key H09048]@-(listen, hear) and with [key H09048]@-(*listen*, *hear*).

But I then noticed issues like Ex 15:26 not being excluded. I did see Deut 6:4 was missing but I haven't investigated it.

 

I will have to look more later to be able to offer more on this.

 

Thx

D

Interesting. What do you get without the wildcards? I got zero hits.


I actually got a bunch of hits with [key H09048]@-(listen, hear) and with [key H09048]@-(*listen*, *hear*).

But I then noticed issues like Ex 15:26 not being excluded. I did see Deut 6:4 was missing but I haven't investigated it.

 

I will have to look more later to be able to offer more on this.

 

Thx

D

Note: the logic I want is: H09048 and (not *listen* AND not *hear*)

But it is easier to test the query without the wildcards


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#10 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 05:53 PM

Man ! I seriously don't search English texts enough apparently ! Various things I didn't realize or had forgotten - I'll have to do an English search crib sheet. Anyhow ...

 

To answer the simple question first, [key H09048]@-(listen, hear) gets me : 774 hits in 649 vss as a WORD search. As a FLEX search I get 358 hits in 287 vss. Neither includes Deut 6:4 which based on your note above "Note: the logic I want is: H09048 and (not *listen* AND not *hear*)" sounds correct. Now for the not so good : listen still occurs in compounds like "listen carefully", "listen in" and "listen closely". I would have expected that they would have been excluded.

 

Taking "listen carefully" as an example I can do [key H09048]@"listen carefully" and I get :

 

Gen. 27:8; Ex. 15:26; 23:22; Job. 13:17; 21:2; Ezek. 3:10

 

which all look correct. Cool. But [key H09048]@-"listen carefully" results in no hits at all, which doesn't make sense to me at all. If instead I try [key H09048]@-(listen, carefully) I can get rid of the hit for "listen carefully" but that seems a bad w/a for other reasons.

 

Now to wildcards. Adding the * before and after the words doesn't really do much. In FLEX I get two fewer hits (one vs) than without. It removes :

 

Gen. 27:6 Rebekah said to her son Jacob,a “Look, I overheard your father say to your brother Esau,
 

which makes sense when you think about it, but it shows there's not much that FLEX isn't already doing for you that the * adds.

 

The basic problem appears to be that exclusion of a word does not exclude translations including that word if they are more than one word.

In addition there is the inconsistency noted above that one can do [key H09048]@"listen carefully" but not [key H09048]@-"listen carefully".

 

As far as I can tell right now the only way to do that would be to find all the ways H09048 is translated, and compile a list of words to be excluded which must contain all words in multi-word translations. That, it would seem could get you close.

 

Ok, try a FLEX search for [key H09048]@-(listen, hear, careful, carefully, listener, close, closely, definitely, ever, expect, cause, to, be, of, in, let, make, surely)

 

I tried to optimize for the English stemmer but misjudged the stems/conjugates. But this is about close I think.

 

If I am still miles off let me know ....

 

Thx

D


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Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#11 miketisdell

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 06:41 PM

Man ! I seriously don't search English texts enough apparently ! Various things I didn't realize or had forgotten - I'll have to do an English search crib sheet. Anyhow ...

 

To answer the simple question first, [key H09048]@-(listen, hear) gets me : 774 hits in 649 vss as a WORD search. As a FLEX search I get 358 hits in 287 vss. Neither includes Deut 6:4 which based on your note above "Note: the logic I want is: H09048 and (not *listen* AND not *hear*)" sounds correct. Now for the not so good : listen still occurs in compounds like "listen carefully", "listen in" and "listen closely". I would have expected that they would have been excluded.

 

Taking "listen carefully" as an example I can do [key H09048]@"listen carefully" and I get :

 

Gen. 27:8; Ex. 15:26; 23:22; Job. 13:17; 21:2; Ezek. 3:10

 

which all look correct. Cool. But [key H09048]@-"listen carefully" results in no hits at all, which doesn't make sense to me at all. If instead I try [key H09048]@-(listen, carefully) I can get rid of the hit for "listen carefully" but that seems a bad w/a for other reasons.

 

Now to wildcards. Adding the * before and after the words doesn't really do much. In FLEX I get two fewer hits (one vs) than without. It removes :

 

Gen. 27:6 Rebekah said to her son Jacob,a “Look, I overheard your father say to your brother Esau,
 

which makes sense when you think about it, but it shows there's not much that FLEX isn't already doing for you that the * adds.

 

The basic problem appears to be that exclusion of a word does not exclude translations including that word if they are more than one word.

In addition there is the inconsistency noted above that one can do [key H09048]@"listen carefully" but not [key H09048]@-"listen carefully".

 

As far as I can tell right now the only way to do that would be to find all the ways H09048 is translated, and compile a list of words to be excluded which must contain all words in multi-word translations. That, it would seem could get you close.

 

Ok, try a FLEX search for [key H09048]@-(listen, hear, careful, carefully, listener, close, closely, definitely, ever, expect, cause, to, be, of, in, let, make, surely)

 

I tried to optimize for the English stemmer but misjudged the stems/conjugates. But this is about close I think.

 

If I am still miles off let me know ....

 

Thx

D


I think that part of the problem is that it is not handling the phrases correctly when the search is an exclusion search.

You definitely did quite a bit of work diagnosing this!



#12 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 06:50 PM

Yep. I suspect this should be moved to Bugs, but I don't have the privs. to do that.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#13 miketisdell

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:55 AM

Yep. I suspect this should be moved to Bugs, but I don't have the privs. to do that.

 

Thx

D

 

I see this got moved to Mac bugs; however, I use a PC so I know this problem exists on the PC



#14 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:27 AM

I cannot remember if I tested on Windows or Mac - Mac I think. But it would surprise me if this were not a generic issue.

 

Thx

D


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Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1




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