Jump to content


Photo

Furtive Pathach Displayed as Regular Pathach


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 Martin Zhang

Martin Zhang

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 490 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 20 February 2019 - 10:55 AM

Hello,

 

Just noticed that the furtive pathach looks like a regular pathach in Exod 4:11.

 

 

Attached File  Screenshot 2019-02-20 11.04.33.png   21.29KB   0 downloads


Martin
Accordance v.12
MacOS High Sierra
iOS 11
Win10 Pro
Android? ??
Accordance tutorials in Chinese.

#2 Helen Brown

Helen Brown

    Emerald

  • Admin
  • 11,553 posts
  • Twitter:accordancebible
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:heart in Israel
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS, Android

Posted 20 February 2019 - 01:17 PM

What do you think it should look like?


Helen Brown
OakTree Software

#3 Martin Zhang

Martin Zhang

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 490 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 20 February 2019 - 01:27 PM

It should look like this:

Attached File  Screenshot 2019-02-20 13.37.13.png   18.81KB   0 downloads

 

The furtive Pathach is pronounced before ḥet.

The way Acc displays is like a regular pathach, it follows ḥet rather than precedes it.

 

 

 


Martin
Accordance v.12
MacOS High Sierra
iOS 11
Win10 Pro
Android? ??
Accordance tutorials in Chinese.

#4 A. Smith

A. Smith

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Atlantic, IA
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 20 February 2019 - 02:40 PM

Furtive Pathach is distinguished by its placement at the end of the word, not by its position under the consonant. While some texts do print it on the righthand side of the consonant, others don't. It's a matter of preference and convention, not correctness. 


Anthony Smith
First Church of Christ

Atlantic, IA

 

For potential diagnostic purposes:

 

MacBook Pro (15-inch, 2018)

2.6 i7, 16GB ram

 

iPad Pro, 10.5", 256GB

 

iPhone 7, 256GB


#5 Michel Gilbert

Michel Gilbert

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,173 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Monet
  • Interests:heritage homes, antiques, gardens, fresh food, good coffee, live music, ויין אשר ישמח לבב אנוש (Ps 104,15)
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS, Android

Posted 20 February 2019 - 04:20 PM

Leningrad B19 and printed BHS place it to the right. B19, being a manuscript, is not 100% consistent in this, but probably 98-99% consistent.

 

Attached File  fp.png   284.41KB   0 downloads

 

From what I've seen in B19 and the Aleppo Codex, the Masoretes would have probably thought it was correct to move it to the right.

Nowadays, since moving the fp requires more work and expense, I would guess that not every printed or electronic text does it. Unicode also only has one value for ַ  , so you have to figure out which space values, including zero, to use with each consonant to prevent it from centering under the last consonant.

By the way, Logos has it to the right (100% of the time from what I've seen). I didn't take a picture of my BHS, I just saw that it looked exactly the same in Logos, and it was easier to take a screenshot of it.

I found that it was easier for students to learn syllable division with the fp slightly to the right. Since I used a printed BHS and L, Martin's question or observation never came up. I counted that a good thing for students in their second week of class.

 

Regards,

 

Michel


  • A. Smith likes this

Michel G. Distefano, Ph.D.

 

Accordance Desktop 12.3 beta on Mac mini, Mojave, 10.14.3

Accordance iOS 2.7.3 on two iPad minis
Accordance Android 1.3.1 on 6.0.1

  


#6 A. Smith

A. Smith

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Atlantic, IA
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 20 February 2019 - 04:31 PM

Printed BHS text has it on the right side. Another text I've got, printed in Jerusalem, has it in the center. 


Anthony Smith
First Church of Christ

Atlantic, IA

 

For potential diagnostic purposes:

 

MacBook Pro (15-inch, 2018)

2.6 i7, 16GB ram

 

iPad Pro, 10.5", 256GB

 

iPhone 7, 256GB


#7 MattChristian

MattChristian

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 226 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NC
  • Interests:Assyriology, Dead Sea Scrolls, Semitic Linguistics, Language Contact, Hebrew, Greek, Syriac, Akkadian,. Ugaritic, Sumerian, Hittite,Jesus, Coffee
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 20 February 2019 - 07:27 PM

Printed BHS text has it on the right side. Another text I've got, printed in Jerusalem, has it in the center. 

That is most likely due to an updated pronunciation, the Masorites always pointed the FP to the right in order of pronunciation from what I have seen. The printed edition you are referring to, is it a mass produced copy of sorts or something else?


Cheers,

 

Matt C


#8 Martin Zhang

Martin Zhang

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 490 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 20 February 2019 - 07:46 PM

Below is a comparison on Times New Roman, Accordance, Ezra SIL, and SBL Hebrew.

The former two have the FP below; the latter two have it to the right under.

It is true that we don't need it to be placed to the right for recognition. But I would strongly prefer it to be that way. It looks nicer (to me), and it communicates vividly that it should be pronunced before ḥet, and it should be ingored in syllabification. Now, Michel has also provided examples from B19 and Aleppo. This is also the way I was taught in first year Hebrew.

 

Attached File  Screenshot 2019-02-20 19.51.51.png   57.94KB   0 downloads

 


Martin
Accordance v.12
MacOS High Sierra
iOS 11
Win10 Pro
Android? ??
Accordance tutorials in Chinese.

#9 Michel Gilbert

Michel Gilbert

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,173 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Monet
  • Interests:heritage homes, antiques, gardens, fresh food, good coffee, live music, ויין אשר ישמח לבב אנוש (Ps 104,15)
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS, Android

Posted 21 February 2019 - 09:30 AM

The first fp in B19, in Gen 1,2, is:

Attached File  רוּחַ בר’ א,ב.png   32.23KB   0 downloads

The next inconsistency is at Gen 8,1:

Attached File  רוּחַ , בר’ ח,א.png   30.68KB   0 downloads

This word alone accounts for the less than perfect score for fp under the right of a consonant in B19. On the other hand, sometimes it can even be exaggerated like this (Gen 26,35):

Attached File  רוּחַ , בר’ כו,לה.png   20.17KB   0 downloads

But, of course, this might be due to the inconsistency of hand writing itself. It is most likely that the rule was to write it to the right, and the scribe either missed the starting point, or, went past the end point.

I do agree with Martin. BHS in print, and electronic BHS in Logos and OliveTree, which allow the choice of Ezra SIL, have it to the right, like the Masoretes intended. What Martin has shown is that it might be a font issue. I copied and pasted וְרוּחַ from Acc in Gen 1,2, and with Ezra SIL the fp moved to the right (in Mellel and Word), as in my screenshot above.

Regards,

Michel


  • A. Smith and Jesse D like this

Michel G. Distefano, Ph.D.

 

Accordance Desktop 12.3 beta on Mac mini, Mojave, 10.14.3

Accordance iOS 2.7.3 on two iPad minis
Accordance Android 1.3.1 on 6.0.1

  


#10 miketisdell

miketisdell

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 293 posts
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Windows, Android

Posted 08 March 2019 - 12:42 AM

It should be to the right for ה,ח, and ע




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users