Can someone tell me a little about NOAB?

[Larry Wing]

I see New Oxford Annotated Bible has been released and I don't know too much about it. Can anyone fill me in on background, leanings, benefits?

 

I'm theologically conservative in the Reformed camp. As expected I have a number or conservative (yes, Dispensational too) study bibles and commentaries. I even have a couple more "liberal" to offer me some other perspectives. All my study is focused for personal growth. I don't teach or preach.

 

It sounds interesting but I'm not sure if there are benefits for my use.  Any thoughts?

 

 

 

[ukfraser]

Can anyone fill me in on background, ..., benefits?

Background

Taken from the editors preface

 

For over five decades The Oxford Annotated Bible and its successor The New Oxford Annotated Bible have served generations of readers and students as a study Bible. That extraordinary longevity is eloquent testimony to its success. This fifth edition retains the format and features that have proven so attractive. At the same time, the field of biblical studies has not been static, and this edition is a thoroughgoing revision of the previous ones. In particular, the editors have recruited contributors from a wide diversity of backgrounds and of scholarly approaches to the biblical traditions. In order to present this diversity more fully, the introductions to the biblical books, the maps and charts, the annotations, and the study materials at the end of the book have been significantly enhanced.

For this edition the editors have thoroughly revised the study materials and commissioned new materials where appropriate. There is a new essay on “The Languages of the Bible,” and the table on “Calendars” has been augmented with an explanatory essay on the differing methods of accounting for time in the ancient world. “Parallel Texts” now includes parallels to the Synoptic Gospels in the Gospel of John. There is a table of “Chapter and Verse Differences” between standard English translations and the Hebrew Bible’s numbering. As always, everything has gone through multiple readings by several editors and revisions by the editorial board and the contributors.

The editors recognize that no single interpretation or approach is sufficient for informed reading of these ancient texts, and have aimed at inclusivity of interpretive strategies. On a great number of issues there is a consensus among scholars, and the contributors have been encouraged to present such consensus when it exists. Where it has broken down, and has not yet re-formed, alternatives are mentioned. Moreover, in order to respect the canonical status of various parts of the Bible for different communities, and to avoid privileging any book or part of the Bible, the editors have kept both introductions and annotations roughly proportionate to the length of the books, while recognizing that some parts require more elaboration than others.

 

Benefits

I use the nrsv and this is a perfect compliment, particularly for the apocrypha and parallels.

 

The essays are included in the screenshot

Edited March 1, 2019 by ukfraser

[Daniel Francis]

I have a rather high opinion of it but I know it is not everyone's cup of tea, here is a review from a conservative evangelical perspective but even it says there is much to commend.

 

http://www.quarterly-review.org/the-new-oxford-annotated-bible/

 

-dan

[Michael Hunt]

Anybody else having trouble with the link Dan has posted? (I'm getting something that is decidedly not a review for NOAB on that page).

[Solly]

It went to the expected web page for me a few hours after you posted.

[Daniel Francis]

The New Oxford Annotated Bible

 

5thedition, Oxford University Press, fully revised and expanded, NRSV with Apocrypha. Pp. xxiii, 2416, ISBN: 978-0190276096. $95.00., reviewed by Darrell Sutton

 

When Early Modern English was becoming the vernacular speech, Edward VI (1537-1553) removed restrictions on the printing of the Bible. Mary Tudor (1516-1568) later reversed these changes. Once again, the Crown looked favorably on Catholicism. So Reformers went into exile, during which time a Church of England was formed in Geneva. There, the “Marian Exiles” agreed to undertake a new rendition of the scriptures. The Geneva Bible of 1560 was the fruit of their extensive labors. It was unique, seeing that it contained not only a new translation, but also over 300,000 annotations to the text. The exiles’ popular interpretations of the English text and alternate renderings of Hebrew and Greek terms opened the minds of citizens whose thoughts had been inured to established beliefs. Since that time, new interpretative ideas and arguments have been received; closed-mindedness has gone out of fashion.

 

From its inception in 1962, The Oxford Annotated Bible provided students of scripture with non-traditional insights into the contours of the development of the canon. The transformation of the New Oxford Annotated Bible (NOAB) is now complete. Originally edited by Herbert May and Bruce Metzger, cutting edge scholarship on the text and context of scripture was popularized. May was a distinguished Old Testament specialist; Metzger was a recognized doyen of New Testament textual criticism. May and Metzger found various facets of select biblical books dubious and legendary. They were broad-minded; but they still maintained sympathies toward the salvific work of Christ outlined in the New Testament. Scholarship advanced in profound ways through their researches. But in light of some of the notes now accepted in the Bible under review, both May and Metzger could be considered somewhat conformist.

 

Is how the review starts out when I click the link.

 

-dan

[Alistair]

I see New Oxford Annotated Bible has been released and I don't know too much about it. Can anyone fill me in on background, leanings, benefits?

 

I'm theologically conservative in the Reformed camp. As expected I have a number or conservative (yes, Dispensational too) study bibles and commentaries. I even have a couple more "liberal" to offer me some other perspectives. All my study is focused for personal growth. I don't teach or preach.

 

It sounds interesting but I'm not sure if there are benefits for my use.  Any thoughts?

I think you would be far better served by other resources. 

[Alistair]

I have a rather high opinion of it but I know it is not everyone's cup of tea, here is a review from a conservative evangelical perspective but even it says there is much to commend.

 

http://www.quarterly-review.org/the-new-oxford-annotated-bible/

 

-dan

Quite a detailed review, and it reflects my experience of using NOAB 4e. 

[Michel Gilbert]

There is so much information in any study Bible, much to most of it good, that it is almost impossible to do a thorough review of them. So, we have to speak in generalizations about study Bibles.

 

The most representative generalization about the NOAB is that its conclusions are more liberal than, say, the more conservative ESV Study Bible. This goes hand in hand with its predominant use in Bible introduction courses in universities and colleges. It has to be somewhat liberal, and somewhat inclusive of many traditions. I used the NOAB and Jewish Study Bible in my introductory courses and gave students the choice of which one to use, with corresponding page numbers in my syllabi.

 

Notice I said “conclusions.” The NOAB and other study Bibles, including conservative ones, use the same historical critical methods, discussing much of the same evidence, but arrive at different conclusions.

 

One practical advantage of the NOAB is that it includes the Apocrypha. Even though I own it in paper, I bought it in Accordance to search the Apocrypha and peruse its notes.

 

Michel

[Julia Falling]

Very helpful, Michael.  Like Larry, I am conservative and Reformed.  I remember, however, in an episode of James White's Dividing Line, that he read a section out of a commentary written from a liberal perspective that was dead-on.  We can get useful information from surprising sources.  The info on the Apocrypha should prove useful to any Bible student.  Being able to access it quickly from the Info pane is a real plus.

[Daniel Francis]

While as I said while I hold the NOAB in a higher opinion than the reviewer I was pleasantly surprised to see ultimately he recommended it as a valuable secondary resource to use along side a study Bible he considers more theologically sound. I value NOAB because i feel it tries to lay out facts to help you draw many conclusions for yourself. There is place in my Library for it as much as there is a place for the Zondervan's NIV study Bible. Needing to choose only one the NOAB would be it for me but that said I gladly use all resources to help me understand what Spirit is trying to tell me through the scriptures at that time.

 

-dan

Edited March 2, 2019 by Daniel Francis

[Michel Gilbert]

 

The NOAB and other study Bibles, including conservative ones, use the same historical critical methods, discussing much of the same evidence, but arrive at different conclusions.

 

 

Here is an example that I looked at yesterday, the introduction to 2 Thess in NOAB and the ESV Study Bible. BTW, I went to school with the author of the NOAB article. I hope the 708 words for the NOAB and 1400 words for the ESV don’t break any copyright laws.

 

NOAB

 

THE SECOND LETTER OF PAUL TO THE THESSALONIANS

 

NAME AND CANONICAL STATUS

 

The letter is designated “second” as it is the shorter of the two letters addressed to Christ- adherents resident in Thessalonica (for details see Introduction to 1 Thessalonians).

 

AUTHORSHIP, DATE, AND HISTORY

 

The authorship of 2 Thessalonians has been disputed since the nineteenth century. Although attributed like 1 Thessalonians to Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy (1.1), notable linguistic and stylist differences may indicate different writers. More significantly, the difficulty in reconciling the end-time (eschatological) scenarios laid out in 1 Thess 4.13–5.11 and 2 Thess 2.1–12 have caused many commentators to doubt they come from the same hand. Particularly troublesome is reconciling the insistence in 1 Thess 5.1–11 that there will be no signs preceding the return of Jesus with the affirmation in 2 Thess 2.1–12 that recognizable signs will take place first. In the annotations we assume that 2 Thessalonians dates after Paul’s death but is written in his style to address the Christ-group in the city of Thessalonica that faces new issues not anticipated in the first letter.

            If the letter was written by Paul and his companions then it probably dates to shortly after 1 Thessalonians in the early 50s CE. If pseudonymous, it is most likely a late first- to early second-century composition.

 

LITERARY HISTORY, STRUCTURE, AND CONTENTS

 

Despite controversy over authorship, the literary integrity of 2 Thessalonians has not been brought into question. It is shorter than most other Pauline letters and follows the Greco-Roman letter writing conventions: opening, thanksgiving, body, closing.

 

            1.1–2   Opening greeting

            1.3–12 Thanksgiving for how the Thessalonians face adversity

            2.1–12 Reassurances about the timing of Jesus’s return

            2.13–17           Second thanksgiving affirming God’s faithfulness

            3.1–5   Exhortation to prayer and steadfastness

            3.6–15 Instruction concerning disorderly members

            3.16–18           Closing greeting

 

The inclusion of a second thanksgiving (2.13–17) is not typical of Greco-Roman letters generally, or any other New Testament letters, except 1 Thessalonians. In the latter, the content of the second thanksgiving (2.13–16) has caused some scholars to see it as a later interpolation (see Introduction to 1 Thessalonians). In the case of 2 Thessalonians, the content itself is unproblematic. Consequently, the presence of a second thanksgiving, along with other parallel features, may indicate that a later writer copied the structure of 1 Thessalonians. Alternatively, similarity in structure and parallel features may be a mark of shared authorship. Scholars remain divided on the question.

 

INTERPRETATION

 

Second Thessalonians addresses community issues that have developed since the writing of 1 Thessalonians. Particularly problematic is the disruptiveness caused by some believers refusing to work and creating friction among members (3.6–16). Of more consequence, however, are claims that the day of the Lord has arrived, and that somehow the Thessalonians have missed the opportunity to be gathered with Jesus (2.1–2). Second Thessalonians asserts that the rumors are false, and exhorts the Thessalonians to stay the course in living out their faith commitments, even when they face opposition (1.4–6; 3.3–5).

            Throughout the history of biblical interpretation the apocalyptic passages of 1 and 2 Thessalonians have been blended with passages taken from other Jewish and Christian apocalyptic texts (e.g., Dan; Mk 13; Rev) to create a single, unified narrative. Such impulses must be avoided. The scenario outlined in 2 Thessalonians is distinctive and much remains perplexing to modern readers, who no longer share the same cultural milieu.

            Similarities to 1 Thessalonians, in structure and more importantly in content, include the positive emphasis on manual labor and a deep-seated concern among the recipients concerning the nature and timing of Jesus’s return and the coming of God’s wrath. Yet, significant differences are also striking, such as the nature and severity of the recipients’ suffering and especially the details of the eschatological scenario in each letter. In any case, whether by the hand of Paul or a later writer, 2 Thessalonians, like the first letter, is primarily concerned to reassure the believers in the steadfastness of their faith commitment to God (1.3–4,11–12; 2.15–17; 3.4–5).

 

 

Richard S. Ascough

 

 

New Oxford Annotated Bible, Fully Revised Fifth Edition, ed. Michael D. Coogan, Accordance electronic ed. (New York: Oxford University Press, 2018), 2119-2120.

 

ESV

 

Introduction To

2 Thessalonians

See Introduction to 1 Thessalonians.

Author and Title

Although some scholars today have questioned Pauline authorship of 2 Thessalonians, the unanimous testimony of the early church fathers supports Pauline authorship. The main reasons given by those who question Pauline authorship include: (1) The eschatology of 2 Thessalonians is regarded as different from that of 1 Thessalonians. Specifically, the sudden/imminent expectation of Christ's return in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 is said to be inconsistent with the requirement in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 that specific signs must first take place. (2) The many commonalities between 1 and 2 Thessalonians are alleged to reflect literary dependence, which is regarded as inconsistent with Paul's authorship of both. (3) Second Thessalonians supposedly has a colder tone than 1 Thessalonians. (4) Second Thessalonians 2:2 and 3:17 are thought to make best sense if written by a pseudonymous author.

A careful evaluation of these objections, however, supports the conclusion that Paul was in fact the writer of 2 Thessalonians. The duplicity entailed in the forgery hypothesis (see 3:17) is hardly credible. In addition, the above objections can be readily refuted: (1) Both letters portray the second coming as an unwelcome and sudden surprise for unbelievers (1 Thess. 5:2-3; 2 Thess. 2:8-12) but an anticipated and welcome event for those who are in Christ (1 Thess. 5:4-8; 2 Thess. 1:6-10; 2:13-17). Moreover, certain events precede the Lord's return in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 as well as 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, 9-10, and imminence can be seen both in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and in 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 10; 2:1. A sudden and imminent eschaton was regarded as compatible with signs in Jewish and early Christian writings (e.g., Matthew 24-25). (2) Paul probably wrote 2 Thessalonians shortly after 1 Thessalonians, and may have referred to a copy of it. (3) The idea of a colder tone in 2 Thessalonians is exaggerated (see Literary Features). (4) Second Thessalonians 2:2 and 3:17 probably reflect Paul's concern that a forged letter may once have existed.

Date

Second Thessalonians was probably penned from Corinth in a.d. 49-51, shortly after 1 Thessalonians.

Relationship to 1 Thessalonians

Some have proposed that 2 Thessalonians preceded 1 Thessalonians, but 2 Thessalonians 2:15 rules this out. Others have postulated that Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians for a Jewish group within the church or even to the Philippians, but such hypotheses are in tension with 2 Thessalonians 1:1. Probably Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians soon after dispatching 1 Thessalonians, because he had received a report (2 Thess. 3:11) that the situation at Thessalonica had taken a surprising turn.

Theme

The theme of the second coming of Jesus dominates 2 Thessalonians just as it dominated 1 Thessalonians. Jesus' coming will be preceded by an "apostasy" (or rebellion) and by the revelation of the man of lawlessness, the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:3). When Jesus comes, he will defeat this rebellious world ruler (2:8) and bring justice to oppressed Christians, and wrath to their persecutors and to unbelievers in general (1:5-10; 2:9-15).

Purpose, Occasion, and Background

The Thessalonian church had accepted the strange claim that "the day of the Lord has come" (2:1-2). How could they have thought this? Some think they spiritualized the concept of the day of the Lord, but Paul's argumentation seems inconsistent with this. Others postulate that they thought that tribulation was part of the day of the Lord and that it had begun, and consequently the second coming was imminent. However, Paul assumes that they knew the second coming occurred at the same time as the coming of the day of the Lord. As strange as it may seem, the Thessalonians may simply have fallen victim to the bizarre notion that the day of the Lord, understood in its normal sense, had come. As a result they were shaken and frightened (2:2). The Thessalonians were also undergoing persecution (1:4), which may have exacerbated their confusion about the end. Furthermore, the community had a problem with idlers refusing to work (3:6-15). They may have stopped working to await and preach the second coming, but evidence for connecting the problems in this way is lacking. Lazy Christians may simply have been exploiting wealthier Christians' generosity in order to avoid work.

Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians (1) to reassure those terrified by the thought that the day of the Lord had come (2:1-3:5), (2) to strengthen the Thessalonians in the face of unremitting persecution (1:3-12), and (3) to deal with the problem of some of the church members refusing to earn their own living (3:6-15).

Timeline

History of Salvation Summary

Christians are to wait expectantly for the second coming of their Savior, Jesus Christ. (For an explanation of the "History of Salvation," see the Overview of the Bible.)

Literary Features

Second Thessalonians follows the customary order of a NT letter. It begins with a salutation and ends with a prayer and benediction. Between these bookends is found the type of informal letter that meanders through a series of topics in the way that present-day informal letters often do. There is the usual mixture of personalia (references to the letter writer's relationship with his recipients) and public information, and Christian doctrine and practical application.

In contrast to the warm and effusive tone of 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians includes some blunt commands as Paul addresses bad behavior and bad thinking. Further, this letter is noteworthy for the author's tough-mindedness in predicting judgment on the ungodly and rebuking church members who behave and think incorrectly. Still, there is a regular swing back and forth between reproof and warm encouragement.

Key Themes

1. God's righteous judgment will be fully manifest when Jesus returns. At that time unbelievers will be condemned and believers will be saved.

1:5-10; 2:9-14

2. Christians will share Christ's glory.

1:10, 12; 2:14

3. The lawless one's revelation and humanity's final rebellion are prerequisites for Jesus' second coming.

2:3-4, 9-12

4. The lawless one will deceive all those who have rejected the gospel, guaranteeing their condemnation when Jesus returns.

2:3, 6-12

5. Christians must not exploit the charity of fellow Christians.

3:6-15

Outline

1. Opening (1:1-2)
2. Thanksgiving and Comfort for the Persecuted Thessalonians (1:3-12)
   1. Thanksgiving proper (1:3-4)
   2. Justice guaranteed when Jesus returns (1:5-10)
   3. Prayer report (1:11-12)
3. Refuting the False Claim about the Day of the Lord (2:1-17)
   • The false claim (2:1-2)
   • The false claim refuted (2:3-12)
   • Reassurance (2:13-14)
   • Exhortation (2:15)
   • Prayer (2:16-17)
4. Transition (3:1-5)
   • Request for prayer (3:1-2)
   • Reassurance (3:3-4)
   • Prayer (3:5)
5. The Problem of the Idlers (3:6-15)
   • The command to the community (3:6)
   • The tradition (3:7-10)
   • The problem (3:11)
   • The command to the idlers (3:12)
   • Instructions to the community (3:13-15)
6. Conclusion (3:16-18)

Maps, Diagrams, and Illustrations

The Authentication of Paul's Letters

In 2 Thess. 2:2 Paul warns against letters that claim to come from him but do not. Thus in 11 of his letters Paul either identifies himself or gives his signature. These features support the conclusion that all the NT letters attributed to Paul are in fact authentic (rather than having been written by someone else "pseudonymously" in Paul's name).

1 Cor. 16:21

I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand

2 Cor. 10:1

I, Paul, myself entreat you

Gal. 5:2

Look: I, Paul, say to you

Gal. 6:11

See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand

Eph. 3:1

I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus

Col. 1:23

of which I, Paul, became a minister

Col. 4:18

I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand

1 Thess. 2:18

we wanted to come to you--I, Paul, again and again

2 Thess. 2:2

not to be . . . alarmed . . . by . . . a letter seeming to be from us

2 Thess. 3:17

I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand. This is the sign of genuineness in every letter of mine; it is the way I write

Philem. 19

I, Paul, write this with my own hand

 

The ESV Study Bible, English Standard Version® (ESV®)

Copyright © 2008 by Crossway Bibles,

a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers

All rights reserved.

 

 

 

Michel

[Daniel Francis]

Differing conclusions for sure but occasionally either side will be too dogmatic.. "This is what the facts clearly show" "This is what tradition always has said". Being Anglican we have  always valued the 3 legged stool model for the faith Bible-Tradition-Reason (you faith really can't stand if you loose a leg) and indeed for the most part i think that is the approach most people of faith use. Times change a lot too... in the 19th century in many circles it was viewed as radical to believe the virgin Mary had other children even in some protestant circles. Tradition had long held the brothers were either Joespeh's from a deceased wife or cousins to Jesus. Now many have moved past tradition to differing conclusion even though there can be made a valid argument from the text.

 

-dan

[Michel Gilbert]

I’m just responding to the OP, “I don't know too much about it [NOAB]. Can anyone fill me in on background, leanings, benefits.” I think Fraser’s post from the Preface and the review article you posted were appropriate in this context too.

[Daniel Francis]

No no i didn't think your response was wrong just wanting to add my 2 cents in for whatever reason, if mere vanity I ask forgiveness of that peccadillo if it appeared i was criticizing you forgive me I most certainly never meant that to be the case.

 

 

 

-dan

 

 

 

[Michael Hunt]

Checking the link out on Chrome mobile gave me a post on fertility treatments. Checking on my desktop gave me the right page.

[Michel Gilbert]

Dan,

 

I didn't think you were criticizing, just that a larger discussion of Bible, tradition, and reason is beyond the scope of the OP, and would probably become heated and violate the Forum Guidelines.

 

Nice Canadian 2 cents worth.

 

Michel

[SimpleTheist]

If you are okay with (or need) a source from a secular (liberal?) perspective, then the Annotated Oxford Study bible is going to be beneficial to you. Though it seems like it may not always deal with the rebuttal from the religious (conservative?) position. Having a document from a secular position can be beneficial in study so you can get a view from the opposing side, however, there may be other books that may detail what those positions are and offering a more traditional explanation to refute those claims (such as the ESV study bible does).

 

 It really comes down to whether or not you will find a secular source that is more critical beneficial. If the answer is yes, then it seems a great deal to buy the Oxford Study Bible. If you are a more traditionalist who is only looking to study and have no need for secular opinions, then it is probably best to go with a different study bible. This isn't to say there wouldn't be value in the OSB, but you will largely get the same opinions in another study bible, with reasons that they aren't true.

 

Of course, this also begs the question as to whether a study bible is useful in general or if it would be more beneficial to get a complete commentary, but that is outside of the scope of the question asked.

[Daniel Francis]

Just FYI OSB is a 1992 REB based study Bible, the NOAB is the acronym that will lead to less confusion.

 

-dan

[Larry Wing]

Thanks to all.  I'm going to pass on this. I don't think it will have any contributions at this time. I do appreciate all your replies though.

[markusvonkaenel]

Thanks for the discussion. I bought this. Unfortunately for JSB and the JANT, Accordance is too late, I have them already as books.

[Solly]

I have the 1965 Oxford Annotated Bible, the 1977 New Oxford Annotated Bible, Expanded Ed., and the 2007 New Oxford Annotated Bible, Augmented 3rd Edition in paper form. It is interesting to compare the essays and annotations in these products through the years with the NOAB 5th Edition. I also have a collection of resources from the latter 1950's through the current decade that operate from what would be considered a conservative or traditionalist point of view. As I examine the writings of the two schools of thoughts over the years, I find that many of the most widely respected scholars on both sides have become less strident in the positions of the two general camps. For example, in relation to the documentary hypothesis, the scholarly side will now state that the goal of isolating strands of sources is not leading to a definitive set of sources, and that the text as we have is quite complex. There is even a shift towards working with the text as a unified document and analyzing how the community responded to the document in the finished form though the ages. On the traditionalist side, leading scholars are recognizing complexities in the text and are offering solid, well thought ways of understanding these complexities. The good news is that all are looking at the data and recognizing the complexities of the data, though they don't converge on how that data was generated nor on details of the application of the data. Personally, I am excited to see calm, serious scholarship from both points of view, and I am pleased that Accordance has excellent resources representing the various viewpoints.

 

Shalom,

Joseph

[R. Mansfield]

Just FYI OSB is a 1992 REB based study Bible, the NOAB is the acronym that will lead to less confusion.

 

It's an easy confuson, regardless. You have no idea how many times I typed some variaton of "New Oxford Annotated Study Bible" this past week and had to correct it!

 

As an aside, I have a prized leather edition of the older Oxford Study Bible in the NEB :-)

[R. Mansfield]

Thanks for the discussion. I bought this. Unfortunately for JSB and the JANT, Accordance is too late, I have them already as books.

 

Oh, it's never too late! Do I need to recount the value of Accordance editions in addition to and over print editions again?

 

:-)

[ukfraser]

Totally agree rick. Bought original jsb and jant as hard copy, immediately duplicated them in accordance, sold jant but kept jsb as my wife prefers paper as she can lend it out.

 

Having it in accordance is invaluable, not only all the tagging and linking but i have it with me on my mobile devices whereever i am unlike my hard copy library which rarely leaves the house unless on loan.

 

;o)

 

Ps, i got noab because of the reduced upgrade prices of both version 2 of jant and jsb, so thanks accordance for negotiating that!

Edited March 3, 2019 by ukfraser