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Hebrew word study finding NT verses

Hebrew word study

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#1 Kristin

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 12:48 PM

I have been having some issues with original language word studies. I am sure it is user error, but I can't figure out what I am doing wrong. I had originally been trying to do a word study on אֱלֹהִ֑ים, to see how it appears in the ESV. I therefore went to the ESV and did a lexeme search on "God." However, when I went to the concordance hits, I kept getting all sorts of hits in the NT, where אֱלֹהִ֑ים obviously does not occur. 

I then decided to follow Timothy's word study exactly, so I went to the ESV and did a lexeme study on "created" in order to look up 
בָּרָ֣א
 . Timothy's example shows 53 hits in 46 verses, and that is my result as well. However, when I go to the concordance to see how the ESV uses בָּרָ֣א, I am getting tons of hits in the NT, where, like the other Hebrew word, בָּרָ֣א does not occur in the Greek text. 

I am therefore not able to get a good idea of how the word is being used in the ESV, since it is also including other words. I also started looking at some of the OT hits for 
אֱלֹהִ֑ים independently, and noticed that sometimes it is using other Hebrew words also in the concordance verse list. 

It is not clear to me what I am doing wrong, and any ideas would be appreciated. I am also attaching a screen shot to make sure it is clear what I am doing.

Thanks,

Kristin

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#2 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 12:52 PM

Hi Kristin,

 

Concordance data may be restricted to the search range or to the whole text. I think there is a gear wheel icon on the concordance tab and you can select it from there. Tweak that and see if it helps.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

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#3 Mark Allison

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 12:56 PM

The concordance is always going to show you every hit for the English word you're searching for, regardless of the lexeme. I'd ignore the concordance, and simply search for the lexeme itself, using the [key] command. The cool thing is that you don't need to know the Strong's number to use it; just knowing the transliteration will work. See the example below: 

 

Screen%20Shot%202019-03-20%20at%201.54.2


Edited by Mark Allison, 20 March 2019 - 12:56 PM.


#4 jarcher

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 12:59 PM

When searching for [KEY H1254] I'm also getting verses that do not contain any words tagged with that Key number (e.g. Gen. 44:16)



#5 Mark Allison

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 01:08 PM

The concordance is not a useful tool for what you're trying to do here. [KEY H1254] is translated "clear" in Joshua 17:18 in the ESV. So, the concordance is going to find every occurrence of "clear" in the ESV. If all you want to see are the occurrences of H1254, just look at your search results in the main display. 



#6 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 01:10 PM

Oh, so the concordance isn't using the key search value directly, but rather it is using the all the words tagged with that key in the translation ? I'm just trying to understand.

 

Thx

D


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Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1


#7 jarcher

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 01:12 PM

So, the concordance is going to find every occurrence of "clear" in the ESV. If all you want to see are the occurrences of H1254, just look at your search results in the main display. 

 

Oh! Can you help us understand why this is done? I can't think of any reason why I'd want to see all verses with "clear" if I searched for a key number.


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#8 Mark Allison

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 01:12 PM

That's correct. If the concordance was simply showing you the search value, then it would be duplicating what you're already seeing in the search results window. 



#9 jarcher

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 01:15 PM

That's correct. If the concordance was simply showing you the search value, then it would be duplicating what you're already seeing in the search results window. 

 

I think that's exactly what you'd want (just displayed differently).  :P


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#10 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 01:16 PM

Hi Kristin,

 

An easy way to see all of the examples is to use the Hebrew Construct Search for אלהים , then add the ESV with Strong's as a Parallel Text. Then, when you hover your mouse over אלהים, you will see how the ESV translated it. But in this case the Concordance says it is translated by "God" every time.

 

Attached File  אלהים.png   362.27KB   0 downloads

 

 

 (By the way, there are not many Kristins in the world that can read cuneiform at sight; whether or not you are Kristin Kleber, welcome to the Forums).

 

Regards,

 

Michel


  


#11 Mark Allison

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 01:27 PM

I think that's exactly what you'd want (just displayed differently).  :P

 

 

This from Joel: "The concordance is literally a concordance: given each of the words found in the search, list where are they found throughout the text.  It often functions as a ‘summary’ of the display, but fundamentally it concords each found word."


Edited by Joel Brown, 20 March 2019 - 01:50 PM.

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#12 Kristin

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 03:46 PM

Hi Michel,

Thank you for the complement. :) I do have a question about what you wrote though, which had provoked my question trying to figure out how אֱלֹהִ֑ים is translated in the ESV. As you mentioned, the ESV is translating the lexeme as "God" every time... but that is not true. For example, Ps 8:5 speaks of the "heavenly beings," but if you look at the Hebrew, the two English words in the ESV of "heavenly beings" is being translated from the one Hebrew word אֱלֹהִ֑ים

I therefore have two questions. First, why does the pie graph say that אֱלֹהִ֑ים is "God" every time, if it is obviously being translated as other things as well in the ESV? (As is the case in Ps 8:5, for example).

Second, my goal is to find out all of the ways that the ESV has translated אֱלֹהִ֑ים. It appears that this information is not accurately showed by either the concordance or by the pie chart. The only way I can do it is have the parallel pain of the ESV. Is this correct?

 

My main concern with this is that if I start with the Hebrew text, it will highlight all the instances of אֱלֹהִ֑ים, but it won't also highlight "how" אֱלֹהִ֑ים is being translated in the ESV, and I would need to go through each verse and highlight it myself, creating my own chart of how it is translated. There's got to be a better way.

 

 

Hi Kristin,

 

An easy way to see all of the examples is to use the Hebrew Construct Search for אלהים , then add the ESV with Strong's as a Parallel Text. Then, when you hover your mouse over אלהים, you will see how the ESV translated it. But in this case the Concordance says it is translated by "God" every time.

 

attachicon.gifאלהים.png

 

 

 (By the way, there are not many Kristins in the world that can read cuneiform at sight; whether or not you are Kristin Kleber, welcome to the Forums).

 

Regards,

 

Michel



#13 Joel Brown

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 04:06 PM

Kristin,

 

All you have to do is search the ESV for the correct key number.  As Mark noted, you can do this with simply [KEY elohim].  You then want to choose the 'Analysis' analytic.  You'll immediately see all words that the ESV translated from אֱלֹהִים.

 

This list includes 'beings' as you noted, along with other words such as 'God-fearing', 'exceedingly', etc.  From this list, you can also find out where ESV made that translation choice.  For instance, select the 'H0430' below 'exceedingly' to find where ESV translated exceedingly from H0430, and choose Amplify menu -> Search Current Resource.  You should get a Search Tab containing the one location, Jonah 3:3.


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#14 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 04:11 PM

Hi Joel,

 

Why do the Analytics from my Construct Search, including the Concordance, show only one translation for אלהים? Shouldn't this information be accessible in the Construct Search also? Or, am I missing something?

 

Regards,

 

Michel


  


#15 Joel Brown

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 04:17 PM

Michel,

 

In your posted Construct Search, you asked the HMT-W4 for all instances of אֱלֹהִים.  Here, the HMT-W4 doesn't know how the ESV (or any other keyed text, including Spanish or Chinese!) translated the word.  Thus, your analysis shows only the information present in the HMT, that is, the lexical form you searched for.  You can, of course, using the Set Analysis Display (Ctrl+T) add other HMT information such as Inflected Form, Gender, Number, Stem, as needed, but none of this is to show how a word is translated elsewhere.  To get the cross-translation statistics, you must run the search in the text that knows about the translation, which is the ESVS, not the HMT.

 

Thus, if you used a Simple construct, linked it to the ESV, and placed an element for KEY H0430, you would get the same results as I instructed Kristin.

 

To put it simply, you'll get the same analysis results whether typing a search or using the construct.  However, the analysis results will differ significantly if you are searching a different text (HMT vs ESVS).


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#16 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 04:46 PM

Joel, thanks for the explanation. I was confused by this:

 

Attached File  אלהים Analytics.png   70.36KB   0 downloads

 

I thought it was the Concordance and Pie Chart for the ESVS.

 

 

Kristin, sorry for steering you in the wrong direction. Of course I knew that one translation for אלהים was inaccurate. Since I assumed Analytics were available in Parallel Texts, I thought that you had uncovered an Analytics bug in the Construct Search.


  


#17 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 05:58 PM

Joel,

 

I went to the ESVS, set the Range to Old Testament, searched as you said, and got the analytics on "God."

 

Here is the progression of the Pie Chart:

 

Attached File  Pie Chart Progress.png   68.83KB   0 downloads

 

By the third click, on "Other," the KEY number for "God" has disappeared at the top, and Accordance starts concording for "God-fearing" or "God's" or other words.

 

So, even with my Range limited to the OT, I am getting hits from the NT when the top of the Pie Chart Pane changes from "KEY H0430" to "God's," etc. Also, I don't see any of the glosses for KEY H0430 in the Pie Chart under "Others" that I can see in Analytics > Analysis.

 

Am I missing something here too? I would assume a Pie Chart would show how the KEY number is translated in all of its occurrences. Or, is "Other" as far as the Pie Chart will go? Does it just tell me to go to Analysis for further information? If so, I don't find this intuitive, especially compared to other programs.

 

Thanks.


  


#18 Kristin

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 06:46 PM

Hi Joel,
Thank you, using the Amplify like you described solved my issue. Though I do agree with some of the other comments other people have made as well (like the function of the concordance), what you described solved my ESV issue.

I would also like to mention though, since I might have found a bug, along with "God," "god," etc, sometimes אֱלֹהִֽים is sometimes being translated really oddly, such as "before." So I looked to see the translational logic for using the English word "before", and discovered that it really is not.

 

For example, Exodus 18:19 translates אֱלֹהִֽים as "before," but looking at the verse, you will see that the highlighted English is "before," but the parallel Hebrew which is highlighted is מוּל, and אֱלֹהִֽים is actually the next word (not highlighted or in search). So maybe I am just missing something, but this appears to be a bug I think. I don't know.

 

 

Kristin,

 

All you have to do is search the ESV for the correct key number.  As Mark noted, you can do this with simply [KEY elohim].  You then want to choose the 'Analysis' analytic.  You'll immediately see all words that the ESV translated from אֱלֹהִים.

 

This list includes 'beings' as you noted, along with other words such as 'God-fearing', 'exceedingly', etc.  From this list, you can also find out where ESV made that translation choice.  For instance, select the 'H0430' below 'exceedingly' to find where ESV translated exceedingly from H0430, and choose Amplify menu -> Search Current Resource.  You should get a Search Tab containing the one location, Jonah 3:3.

 



#19 MattChristian

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 01:35 PM

Hi Joel,
Thank you, using the Amplify like you described solved my issue. Though I do agree with some of the other comments other people have made as well (like the function of the concordance), what you described solved my ESV issue.

I would also like to mention though, since I might have found a bug, along with "God," "god," etc, sometimes אֱלֹהִֽים is sometimes being translated really oddly, such as "before." So I looked to see the translational logic for using the English word "before", and discovered that it really is not.

 

For example, Exodus 18:19 translates אֱלֹהִֽים as "before," but looking at the verse, you will see that the highlighted English is "before," but the parallel Hebrew which is highlighted is מוּל, and אֱלֹהִֽים is actually the next word (not highlighted or in search). So maybe I am just missing something, but this appears to be a bug I think. I don't know.

I have also noticed this but I do not remember a specific example off hand. In instances like this, you can right click and suggest a correction. That will help the Dev guys to see it and act. It is sent in email format.


Cheers,

 

Matt C


#20 Kristin

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 02:10 PM

Hi Matt,
Thank you for the idea and explanation. Given what you said, I sent them an email concerning the Analysis results on this verse.

Take care,

Kristin

 

I have also noticed this but I do not remember a specific example off hand. In instances like this, you can right click and suggest a correction. That will help the Dev guys to see it and act. It is sent in email format.


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