Jump to content

Hebrew word study finding NT verses


Kristin

Recommended Posts

I have been having some issues with original language word studies. I am sure it is user error, but I can't figure out what I am doing wrong. I had originally been trying to do a word study on אֱלֹהִ֑ים, to see how it appears in the ESV. I therefore went to the ESV and did a lexeme search on "God." However, when I went to the concordance hits, I kept getting all sorts of hits in the NT, where אֱלֹהִ֑ים obviously does not occur. 

I then decided to follow Timothy's word study exactly, so I went to the ESV and did a lexeme study on "created" in order to look up 
בָּרָ֣א
 . Timothy's example shows 53 hits in 46 verses, and that is my result as well. However, when I go to the concordance to see how the ESV uses בָּרָ֣א, I am getting tons of hits in the NT, where, like the other Hebrew word, בָּרָ֣א does not occur in the Greek text. 

I am therefore not able to get a good idea of how the word is being used in the ESV, since it is also including other words. I also started looking at some of the OT hits for 
אֱלֹהִ֑ים independently, and noticed that sometimes it is using other Hebrew words also in the concordance verse list. 

It is not clear to me what I am doing wrong, and any ideas would be appreciated. I am also attaching a screen shot to make sure it is clear what I am doing.

Thanks,

Kristin

post-35522-0-86937000-1553103173_thumb.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Kristin,

 

Concordance data may be restricted to the search range or to the whole text. I think there is a gear wheel icon on the concordance tab and you can select it from there. Tweak that and see if it helps.

 

Thx

D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The concordance is always going to show you every hit for the English word you're searching for, regardless of the lexeme. I'd ignore the concordance, and simply search for the lexeme itself, using the [key] command. The cool thing is that you don't need to know the Strong's number to use it; just knowing the transliteration will work. See the example below: 

 

Screen%20Shot%202019-03-20%20at%201.54.2

Edited by Mark Allison
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When searching for [KEY H1254] I'm also getting verses that do not contain any words tagged with that Key number (e.g. Gen. 44:16)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The concordance is not a useful tool for what you're trying to do here. [KEY H1254] is translated "clear" in Joshua 17:18 in the ESV. So, the concordance is going to find every occurrence of "clear" in the ESV. If all you want to see are the occurrences of H1254, just look at your search results in the main display. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, so the concordance isn't using the key search value directly, but rather it is using the all the words tagged with that key in the translation ? I'm just trying to understand.

 

Thx

D

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, the concordance is going to find every occurrence of "clear" in the ESV. If all you want to see are the occurrences of H1254, just look at your search results in the main display. 

 

Oh! Can you help us understand why this is done? I can't think of any reason why I'd want to see all verses with "clear" if I searched for a key number.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's correct. If the concordance was simply showing you the search value, then it would be duplicating what you're already seeing in the search results window. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's correct. If the concordance was simply showing you the search value, then it would be duplicating what you're already seeing in the search results window. 

 

I think that's exactly what you'd want (just displayed differently).  :P

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Kristin,

 

An easy way to see all of the examples is to use the Hebrew Construct Search for אלהים , then add the ESV with Strong's as a Parallel Text. Then, when you hover your mouse over אלהים, you will see how the ESV translated it. But in this case the Concordance says it is translated by "God" every time.

 

post-32543-0-49282200-1553105399_thumb.png

 

 

 (By the way, there are not many Kristins in the world that can read cuneiform at sight; whether or not you are Kristin Kleber, welcome to the Forums).

 

Regards,

 

Michel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that's exactly what you'd want (just displayed differently).  :P

 

 

This from Joel: "The concordance is literally a concordance: given each of the words found in the search, list where are they found throughout the text.  It often functions as a ‘summary’ of the display, but fundamentally it concords each found word."

Edited by Joel Brown
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Michel,

Thank you for the complement. :) I do have a question about what you wrote though, which had provoked my question trying to figure out how אֱלֹהִ֑ים is translated in the ESV. As you mentioned, the ESV is translating the lexeme as "God" every time... but that is not true. For example, Ps 8:5 speaks of the "heavenly beings," but if you look at the Hebrew, the two English words in the ESV of "heavenly beings" is being translated from the one Hebrew word אֱלֹהִ֑ים

I therefore have two questions. First, why does the pie graph say that אֱלֹהִ֑ים is "God" every time, if it is obviously being translated as other things as well in the ESV? (As is the case in Ps 8:5, for example).

Second, my goal is to find out all of the ways that the ESV has translated אֱלֹהִ֑ים. It appears that this information is not accurately showed by either the concordance or by the pie chart. The only way I can do it is have the parallel pain of the ESV. Is this correct?

 

My main concern with this is that if I start with the Hebrew text, it will highlight all the instances of אֱלֹהִ֑ים, but it won't also highlight "how" אֱלֹהִ֑ים is being translated in the ESV, and I would need to go through each verse and highlight it myself, creating my own chart of how it is translated. There's got to be a better way.

 

 

Hi Kristin,

 

An easy way to see all of the examples is to use the Hebrew Construct Search for אלהים , then add the ESV with Strong's as a Parallel Text. Then, when you hover your mouse over אלהים, you will see how the ESV translated it. But in this case the Concordance says it is translated by "God" every time.

 

attachicon.gifאלהים.png

 

 

 (By the way, there are not many Kristins in the world that can read cuneiform at sight; whether or not you are Kristin Kleber, welcome to the Forums).

 

Regards,

 

Michel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kristin,

 

All you have to do is search the ESV for the correct key number.  As Mark noted, you can do this with simply [KEY elohim].  You then want to choose the 'Analysis' analytic.  You'll immediately see all words that the ESV translated from אֱלֹהִים.

 

This list includes 'beings' as you noted, along with other words such as 'God-fearing', 'exceedingly', etc.  From this list, you can also find out where ESV made that translation choice.  For instance, select the 'H0430' below 'exceedingly' to find where ESV translated exceedingly from H0430, and choose Amplify menu -> Search Current Resource.  You should get a Search Tab containing the one location, Jonah 3:3.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Joel,

 

Why do the Analytics from my Construct Search, including the Concordance, show only one translation for אלהים? Shouldn't this information be accessible in the Construct Search also? Or, am I missing something?

 

Regards,

 

Michel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michel,

 

In your posted Construct Search, you asked the HMT-W4 for all instances of אֱלֹהִים.  Here, the HMT-W4 doesn't know how the ESV (or any other keyed text, including Spanish or Chinese!) translated the word.  Thus, your analysis shows only the information present in the HMT, that is, the lexical form you searched for.  You can, of course, using the Set Analysis Display (Ctrl+T) add other HMT information such as Inflected Form, Gender, Number, Stem, as needed, but none of this is to show how a word is translated elsewhere.  To get the cross-translation statistics, you must run the search in the text that knows about the translation, which is the ESVS, not the HMT.

 

Thus, if you used a Simple construct, linked it to the ESV, and placed an element for KEY H0430, you would get the same results as I instructed Kristin.

 

To put it simply, you'll get the same analysis results whether typing a search or using the construct.  However, the analysis results will differ significantly if you are searching a different text (HMT vs ESVS).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joel, thanks for the explanation. I was confused by this:

 

post-32543-0-63157400-1553118209_thumb.png

 

I thought it was the Concordance and Pie Chart for the ESVS.

 

 

Kristin, sorry for steering you in the wrong direction. Of course I knew that one translation for אלהים was inaccurate. Since I assumed Analytics were available in Parallel Texts, I thought that you had uncovered an Analytics bug in the Construct Search.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joel,

 

I went to the ESVS, set the Range to Old Testament, searched as you said, and got the analytics on "God."

 

Here is the progression of the Pie Chart:

 

post-32543-0-36604100-1553122491_thumb.png

 

By the third click, on "Other," the KEY number for "God" has disappeared at the top, and Accordance starts concording for "God-fearing" or "God's" or other words.

 

So, even with my Range limited to the OT, I am getting hits from the NT when the top of the Pie Chart Pane changes from "KEY H0430" to "God's," etc. Also, I don't see any of the glosses for KEY H0430 in the Pie Chart under "Others" that I can see in Analytics > Analysis.

 

Am I missing something here too? I would assume a Pie Chart would show how the KEY number is translated in all of its occurrences. Or, is "Other" as far as the Pie Chart will go? Does it just tell me to go to Analysis for further information? If so, I don't find this intuitive, especially compared to other programs.

 

Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Joel,
Thank you, using the Amplify like you described solved my issue. Though I do agree with some of the other comments other people have made as well (like the function of the concordance), what you described solved my ESV issue.

I would also like to mention though, since I might have found a bug, along with "God," "god," etc, sometimes אֱלֹהִֽים is sometimes being translated really oddly, such as "before." So I looked to see the translational logic for using the English word "before", and discovered that it really is not.

 

For example, Exodus 18:19 translates אֱלֹהִֽים as "before," but looking at the verse, you will see that the highlighted English is "before," but the parallel Hebrew which is highlighted is מוּל, and אֱלֹהִֽים is actually the next word (not highlighted or in search). So maybe I am just missing something, but this appears to be a bug I think. I don't know.

 

 

Kristin,

 

All you have to do is search the ESV for the correct key number.  As Mark noted, you can do this with simply [KEY elohim].  You then want to choose the 'Analysis' analytic.  You'll immediately see all words that the ESV translated from אֱלֹהִים.

 

This list includes 'beings' as you noted, along with other words such as 'God-fearing', 'exceedingly', etc.  From this list, you can also find out where ESV made that translation choice.  For instance, select the 'H0430' below 'exceedingly' to find where ESV translated exceedingly from H0430, and choose Amplify menu -> Search Current Resource.  You should get a Search Tab containing the one location, Jonah 3:3.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Joel,

Thank you, using the Amplify like you described solved my issue. Though I do agree with some of the other comments other people have made as well (like the function of the concordance), what you described solved my ESV issue.

 

I would also like to mention though, since I might have found a bug, along with "God," "god," etc, sometimes אֱלֹהִֽים is sometimes being translated really oddly, such as "before." So I looked to see the translational logic for using the English word "before", and discovered that it really is not.

 

For example, Exodus 18:19 translates אֱלֹהִֽים as "before," but looking at the verse, you will see that the highlighted English is "before," but the parallel Hebrew which is highlighted is מוּל, and אֱלֹהִֽים is actually the next word (not highlighted or in search). So maybe I am just missing something, but this appears to be a bug I think. I don't know.

I have also noticed this but I do not remember a specific example off hand. In instances like this, you can right click and suggest a correction. That will help the Dev guys to see it and act. It is sent in email format.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Matt,
Thank you for the idea and explanation. Given what you said, I sent them an email concerning the Analysis results on this verse.

Take care,

Kristin

 

I have also noticed this but I do not remember a specific example off hand. In instances like this, you can right click and suggest a correction. That will help the Dev guys to see it and act. It is sent in email format.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Curious the Ex 18:19 case. It's double tagged with H4136 and H0430 in the ESVS. Not sure why. The Hebrew text wouldn't appear to require it.

 

Thx

D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi, Kristen!

 

Welcome to Accordance! Sorry I am late to this discussion, but I have been preparing another podcast.

 

The responders on this forum are correct, the concordance doesn't work the way one would assume. Frankly, I don't find myself using it very much. Instead, I use the search results pane as the "concordance" for my searches.

 

To find anamolous results, which are often buried in the data, I'd recommend either Analysis or the Bar chart. The Pie chart is just too coarse. I'll attach a screenshot.

 

To find a keyword that has been translated with a specific word, type an "at" sign (@), then a space and the translated word. Here's an example: [KEY H0430]@ goddess

 

Finally, yes, word tagging is sometimes very frustrating, especially when a single word is translated by a phrase. People only tag a single word in the phrase, lest they corrupt the statistical analysis. Sometimes they chose (what in my opinion is) the wrong word. That's in addition to the instances where a tag is simply incorrect due to human error.

 

post-29215-0-54896000-1553201871_thumb.png

Edited by Timothy Jenney
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Timothy, 
Thank you for your examples and explanation. I will try reorganizing my searches the way you suggested. On another note, thank you very much for your podcasts. Since coming to Accordance, I have been loyally watching them in order to understand how to use the software. I have found them not only technically informative, but have also found your theological analysis of the texts to be helpful and interesting as well.
 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...