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#1 Donald Cobb

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 10:31 AM

Hi all,

 

I'm sure this is easy enough, but I can't seem to figure it out. I am trying to find passages in the Epistles (Romans-Revelation) where the authors use the title κύριος with either χριστός or Ἰησοῦς, or both. I can't figure out how to do a OR search with the construct feature, and I can't find the right command to do it in the search panel. Plus, the problem I come up with on the search panel is that it gives me the number of hits for each word, not the number of times a combination of the words occurs.

 

Can someone give me some pointers on this? I'd appreciate it immensely!

 

DC

 

 


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#2 Helen Brown

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 01:38 PM

In the Construct you can simply put χριστός, Ἰησοῦς in the LEX column.

 

You can use the Analysis to see how many times each word occurs in your hits.

 

I would post examples but a lot depends on whether you just want the phrase, or whether the words can be in either order and with or without the article.


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#3 Donald Cobb

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 02:50 PM

Thanks Helen, 

 

What I'm trying to find is any combination of κύριος with either χριστός or Ἰησοῦς, or both, i.e.

 

κύριος Ἰησοῦς 

κύριος χριστός

κύριος  χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς 

κύριος Ἰησοῦς  χριστός

Ἰησοῦς  χριστὸς κύριος 

κτλ.

 

So I need a query that doesn't specify word order, but in which the different words have the same case and number, and, additionally, that counts each combination as one hit. I'm sure that can be done...

 

DC



#4 Mark Allison

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 02:53 PM

Graphical construct search:

 

Screen%20Shot%202019-05-10%20at%203.54.5


Edited by Mark Allison, 10 May 2019 - 03:14 PM.

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#5 Mark Allison

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 03:10 PM

Without a graphical construct search: 

 

Screen%20Shot%202019-05-10%20at%204.12.0


Edited by Mark Allison, 10 May 2019 - 03:15 PM.

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#6 Donald Cobb

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 11:35 PM

Thank you Mark. I appreciate the help! That gets me pretty much where I need to go (I upped the number of intervening words to 5, to make sure I get collocations like τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν Χριστῷ).

 

There does seem to be a little glitch with those setups, though: with the Graphical construct search, I don't get quite the same results as with the query in the search pane: the former doesn't pick up Rm 6:18; Col 3:24; 1P 3:15; Rev 11:15 (this last one, BTW, is a false positive, but it still should have been picked up).

 

Is there a reason for this?

 

Again, thanks!



#7 Mark Allison

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 05:35 AM

I'm getting all those hits with the graphical construct search. Do you have "Search Both Directions" checked? 



#8 mgvh

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 09:56 AM

Thank you Mark. I appreciate the help! That gets me pretty much where I need to go (I upped the number of intervening words to 5, to make sure I get collocations like τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν Χριστῷ).

 

There does seem to be a little glitch with those setups, though: with the Graphical construct search, I don't get quite the same results as with the query in the search pane: the former doesn't pick up Rm 6:18; Col 3:24; 1P 3:15; Rev 11:15 (this last one, BTW, is a false positive, but it still should have been picked up).

 

Is there a reason for this?

 

Again, thanks!

I get same results using both methods. (and using your 5 word within frame)

I'm not seeing Romans 6.18 as a hit. You must mean some other passage?

I get Col 3.24, 1Pet 3.15, and Rev 11.15 correctly both ways.



#9 Donald Cobb

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 01:54 PM

Thanks guys,

 

I did add one additional criterion, i.e., agreement on case and number. Might that account for the difference? It shouldn't, but that's the only thing that I did differently from what you showed, Mark.

 

Attached File  Capture d'écran.jpg   130.91KB   0 downloads

 

Do you still get the same results with this added parameter?

 

DC

 

 



#10 Mark Allison

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 02:11 PM

I'm still finding those hits. Perhaps it has something to do with the definition of your range. Could you share a screenshot of that?



#11 Donald Cobb

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 12:46 AM

Hi Mark,

 

I think I see what seems to have happened. It's a tiny detail (maybe a bug?): In my construction, there's no comma between Ἰησοῦς and χριστόςI just tried the search again, once with the comma, giving the good results, once without, which gives the same results as I had previously gotten.

 

So apparently, without the comma finds verses with either all three words, or κύριος + Ἰησοῦς (the first word in the second box), but not verses having κύριος with only the second word in the second box (χριστός).

 

One more thing, which is actually a follow-up question to my original search: how do I now find verses that have κύριος but NOT either Ἰησοῦς or χριστός modifying it (i.e., either κυριος alone, or κύριος with one or both of the same accompanying words but, e.g., in another case)?

 

Many thanks for your help!

 

DC



#12 Mark Allison

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 05:22 AM

Donald,

 

I'm not really sure why removing the comma gives the results it does. However, if you enter the words by clicking on individual words in the word list (displayed when you drag the "Lex" item into a column), the a comma is automatically added between the words. 

 

Screen%20Shot%202019-05-12%20at%206.21.2



#13 Mark Allison

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 05:24 AM

 

One more thing, which is actually a follow-up question to my original search: how do I now find verses that have κύριος but NOT either Ἰησοῦς or χριστός modifying it (i.e., either κυριος alone, or κύριος with one or both of the same accompanying words but, e.g., in another case)?

 

 

Just drag the "NOT" Negating Item on top of the the words you want eliminated from the search. Since you still have the "Agree" item there, it will only ignore verses where those words are found agreeing in Gender and Number with κύριος.

 

Screen%20Shot%202019-05-12%20at%206.19.4



#14 Mark Allison

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 05:29 AM

BTW, you can verify that you've actually found verses where both Ἰησοῦς and Χριστός may be found, though not in the same number and case (and they don't have to be present at all), create a new tab and use the "Contents" command. As the name implies, it will only search the contents of another tab. 

 

Screen%20Shot%202019-05-12%20at%206.29.0


Edited by Mark Allison, 12 May 2019 - 05:34 AM.


#15 Donald Cobb

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 08:51 AM

Just drag the "NOT" Negating Item on top of the the words you want eliminated from the search. Since you still have the "Agree" item there, it will only ignore verses where those words are found agreeing in Gender and Number with κύριος.

 

Screen%20Shot%202019-05-12%20at%206.19.4

 

Thank you again, Mark. Sorry to bug you on this. However, I'm not getting good results on this search. I get the same number of hits as you, but when I look at the results, (e.g., from Romans on), I get a ton of them with some combination of Ἰησοῦς or χριστός. In other words, the NOT doesn't seem to be excluding those verses with the so-called excluded words. 

 

All it does is highlight κύριος and not the two other words; but it leaves the verses that contain them.

 

On this setup, there is a workaround, in that I can take the results of this, then open a new window and do a search on  [CONTENTS NA28 Greek NT (Sigla) 2] <NOT> (ιησους, χριστος). But that seems to render the NOT command in the construction search useless.

 

So is there a step that's been omitted somewhere? Again, thanks!

 

DC



#16 Enoch

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 01:32 PM

I am thinking that there could be a lot of textual variation with this search. I am not sure what you want to do about that. I suppose you could search different Greek text editions. The first example which comes to mind is in Acts 16:31: 

31  οἱ δὲ εἶπαν· πίστευσον ἐπὶ τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν  ⸆  καὶ σωθήσῃ σὺ

TR οἱ δὲ εἶπον, Πίστευσον ἐπὶ τὸν Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, καὶ σωθήσῃ σὺ



#17 Donald Cobb

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 02:12 PM

Yes, there's a lot of variation in texts with these names/titles. For the moment, I'm still trying to figure out how all that works in Accordance to be able to extend it to other manuscripts!



#18 Mark Allison

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 09:03 AM

Thank you again, Mark. Sorry to bug you on this. However, I'm not getting good results on this search. I get the same number of hits as you, but when I look at the results, (e.g., from Romans on), I get a ton of them with some combination of Ἰησοῦς or χριστός. In other words, the NOT doesn't seem to be excluding those verses with the so-called excluded words. 

 

Sorry. You should be negating the "Agree" item and not the Lexical forms. 


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#19 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 09:33 AM

Hi Donald,

 

  Here's a non-construct version that gets as close as I can to your original request.

Attached File  sc.jpg   41.04KB   0 downloads

 

  I used sentence scope so that having the words in different sentences didn't trigger a hit. As you want the terms related to one another this seemed useful. And it's restricted to the range you originally requested.

 

  Now during the course of this topic you raised a couple of questions :

 

  1. You asked about Rom 6:18. That isn't a hit and I don't get it with this query. Did you mean something else ?

 

  2. The behaviour of the LEX item with and without a comma.

 

    This is interesting. I never knew this happened. I am not sure if this is a bug but the results returned without the comma are rather odd. It returns many fewer hits but the hits it gets are hard to understand. My initial thinking was that just like the search box it would find Ἰησοῦς χριστός adjacent and indeed it does. But it doesn't highlight χριστός in such cases, and it also finds cases of Ἰησοῦς on its own. It does not find χριστός on its own. By "on its own" I mean with κυριος but not with the other word in the second LEX item. It would be good to have Accordance check this out in case it's a bug or explain it in case it's a useful way to construct a search.

 

  3. "how do I now find verses that have κύριος but NOT either Ἰησοῦς or χριστός modifying it (i.e., either κυριος alone, or κύριος with one or both of the same accompanying words but, e.g., in another case)?"

 

  This appears to ask two questions:

    a. kurios on its own

    b. kurious with either or both modifiers but without case, number agreement.

 

  Ignoring case-number-gender agreement a simple search box query will do (a) :

 

   [RANGE rom-rev] <AND> (κυριος <NOT> ιησους <NOT> Χριστός)

 

  Of course this is limited to collocation in a particular scope. If you want to permit words more than 5 words away then you'll need to resort to construct.

 

  (B) is facilitated by negating the AGREE element. But none of the hits I get that way indicate that the word not in agreement is in the same clause or sentence. I would have to do more research to convince myself that no such case exists though. Do you have any examples ?

 

  Some of these queries are a little raw and I have not extensively studied the results so ping back with any refinements or questions.

 

Thx

D

 


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#20 Donald Cobb

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 11:51 AM

Hi Daniel,

 

Today is crazy busy, so I'll take a closer look at you message a little later. Thanks for taking the time to look at this.

 

Re "1. You asked about Rom 6:18. That isn't a hit and I don't get it with this query. Did you mean something else ?" My bad. I meant to write Rom 16:18.

 

DC






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