AND/OR searches

[Donald Cobb]

Hi all,

 

I'm sure this is easy enough, but I can't seem to figure it out. I am trying to find passages in the Epistles (Romans-Revelation) where the authors use the title κύριος with either χριστός or Ἰησοῦς, or both. I can't figure out how to do a OR search with the construct feature, and I can't find the right command to do it in the search panel. Plus, the problem I come up with on the search panel is that it gives me the number of hits for each word, not the number of times a combination of the words occurs.

 

Can someone give me some pointers on this? I'd appreciate it immensely!

 

DC

 

 

[Helen Brown]

In the Construct you can simply put χριστός, Ἰησοῦς in the LEX column.

 

You can use the Analysis to see how many times each word occurs in your hits.

 

I would post examples but a lot depends on whether you just want the phrase, or whether the words can be in either order and with or without the article.

[Donald Cobb]

Thanks Helen, 

 

What I'm trying to find is any combination of κύριος with either χριστός or Ἰησοῦς, or both, i.e.

 

κύριος Ἰησοῦς 

κύριος χριστός

κύριος  χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς 

κύριος Ἰησοῦς  χριστός

Ἰησοῦς  χριστὸς κύριος 

κτλ.

 

So I need a query that doesn't specify word order, but in which the different words have the same case and number, and, additionally, that counts each combination as one hit. I'm sure that can be done...

 

DC

[Mark Allison]

Graphical construct search:

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Mark Allison

[Mark Allison]

Without a graphical construct search: 

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Mark Allison

[Donald Cobb]

Thank you Mark. I appreciate the help! That gets me pretty much where I need to go (I upped the number of intervening words to 5, to make sure I get collocations like τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν Χριστῷ).

 

There does seem to be a little glitch with those setups, though: with the Graphical construct search, I don't get quite the same results as with the query in the search pane: the former doesn't pick up Rm 6:18; Col 3:24; 1P 3:15; Rev 11:15 (this last one, BTW, is a false positive, but it still should have been picked up).

 

Is there a reason for this?

 

Again, thanks!

[Mark Allison]

I'm getting all those hits with the graphical construct search. Do you have "Search Both Directions" checked? 

[mgvh]

Thank you Mark. I appreciate the help! That gets me pretty much where I need to go (I upped the number of intervening words to 5, to make sure I get collocations like τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν Χριστῷ).

 

There does seem to be a little glitch with those setups, though: with the Graphical construct search, I don't get quite the same results as with the query in the search pane: the former doesn't pick up Rm 6:18; Col 3:24; 1P 3:15; Rev 11:15 (this last one, BTW, is a false positive, but it still should have been picked up).

 

Is there a reason for this?

 

Again, thanks!

I get same results using both methods. (and using your 5 word within frame)

I'm not seeing Romans 6.18 as a hit. You must mean some other passage?

I get Col 3.24, 1Pet 3.15, and Rev 11.15 correctly both ways.

[Donald Cobb]

Thanks guys,

 

I did add one additional criterion, i.e., agreement on case and number. Might that account for the difference? It shouldn't, but that's the only thing that I did differently from what you showed, Mark.

 

 

Do you still get the same results with this added parameter?

 

DC

 

 

[Mark Allison]

I'm still finding those hits. Perhaps it has something to do with the definition of your range. Could you share a screenshot of that?

[Donald Cobb]

Hi Mark,

 

I think I see what seems to have happened. It's a tiny detail (maybe a bug?): In my construction, there's no comma between Ἰησοῦς and χριστός. I just tried the search again, once with the comma, giving the good results, once without, which gives the same results as I had previously gotten.

 

So apparently, without the comma finds verses with either all three words, or κύριος + Ἰησοῦς (the first word in the second box), but not verses having κύριος with only the second word in the second box (χριστός).

 

One more thing, which is actually a follow-up question to my original search: how do I now find verses that have κύριος but NOT either Ἰησοῦς or χριστός modifying it (i.e., either κυριος alone, or κύριος with one or both of the same accompanying words but, e.g., in another case)?

 

Many thanks for your help!

 

DC

[Mark Allison]

Donald,

 

I'm not really sure why removing the comma gives the results it does. However, if you enter the words by clicking on individual words in the word list (displayed when you drag the "Lex" item into a column), the a comma is automatically added between the words. 

 

[Mark Allison]

 

One more thing, which is actually a follow-up question to my original search: how do I now find verses that have κύριος but NOT either Ἰησοῦς or χριστός modifying it (i.e., either κυριος alone, or κύριος with one or both of the same accompanying words but, e.g., in another case)?

 

 

Just drag the "NOT" Negating Item on top of the the words you want eliminated from the search. Since you still have the "Agree" item there, it will only ignore verses where those words are found agreeing in Gender and Number with κύριος.

 

[Mark Allison]

BTW, you can verify that you've actually found verses where both Ἰησοῦς and Χριστός may be found, though not in the same number and case (and they don't have to be present at all), create a new tab and use the "Contents" command. As the name implies, it will only search the contents of another tab. 

 

Edited May 12, 2019 by Mark Allison

[Donald Cobb]

Just drag the "NOT" Negating Item on top of the the words you want eliminated from the search. Since you still have the "Agree" item there, it will only ignore verses where those words are found agreeing in Gender and Number with κύριος.

 

 

Thank you again, Mark. Sorry to bug you on this. However, I'm not getting good results on this search. I get the same number of hits as you, but when I look at the results, (e.g., from Romans on), I get a ton of them with some combination of Ἰησοῦς or χριστός. In other words, the NOT doesn't seem to be excluding those verses with the so-called excluded words. 

 

All it does is highlight κύριος and not the two other words; but it leaves the verses that contain them.

 

On this setup, there is a workaround, in that I can take the results of this, then open a new window and do a search on  [CONTENTS NA28 Greek NT (Sigla) 2] <NOT> (ιησους, χριστος). But that seems to render the NOT command in the construction search useless.

 

So is there a step that's been omitted somewhere? Again, thanks!

 

DC

[Enoch]

I am thinking that there could be a lot of textual variation with this search. I am not sure what you want to do about that. I suppose you could search different Greek text editions. The first example which comes to mind is in Acts 16:31: 

31  οἱ δὲ εἶπαν· πίστευσον ἐπὶ τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν  ⸆  καὶ σωθήσῃ σὺ

TR οἱ δὲ εἶπον, Πίστευσον ἐπὶ τὸν Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, καὶ σωθήσῃ σὺ

[Donald Cobb]

Yes, there's a lot of variation in texts with these names/titles. For the moment, I'm still trying to figure out how all that works in Accordance to be able to extend it to other manuscripts!

[Mark Allison]

Thank you again, Mark. Sorry to bug you on this. However, I'm not getting good results on this search. I get the same number of hits as you, but when I look at the results, (e.g., from Romans on), I get a ton of them with some combination of Ἰησοῦς or χριστός. In other words, the NOT doesn't seem to be excluding those verses with the so-called excluded words. 

 

Sorry. You should be negating the "Agree" item and not the Lexical forms. 

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Hi Donald,

 

  Here's a non-construct version that gets as close as I can to your original request.

 

  I used sentence scope so that having the words in different sentences didn't trigger a hit. As you want the terms related to one another this seemed useful. And it's restricted to the range you originally requested.

 

  Now during the course of this topic you raised a couple of questions :

 

  1. You asked about Rom 6:18. That isn't a hit and I don't get it with this query. Did you mean something else ?

 

  2. The behaviour of the LEX item with and without a comma.

 

    This is interesting. I never knew this happened. I am not sure if this is a bug but the results returned without the comma are rather odd. It returns many fewer hits but the hits it gets are hard to understand. My initial thinking was that just like the search box it would find Ἰησοῦς χριστός adjacent and indeed it does. But it doesn't highlight χριστός in such cases, and it also finds cases of Ἰησοῦς on its own. It does not find χριστός on its own. By "on its own" I mean with κυριος but not with the other word in the second LEX item. It would be good to have Accordance check this out in case it's a bug or explain it in case it's a useful way to construct a search.

 

  3. "how do I now find verses that have κύριος but NOT either Ἰησοῦς or χριστός modifying it (i.e., either κυριος alone, or κύριος with one or both of the same accompanying words but, e.g., in another case)?"

 

  This appears to ask two questions:

    a. kurios on its own

    b. kurious with either or both modifiers but without case, number agreement.

 

  Ignoring case-number-gender agreement a simple search box query will do (a) :

 

   [RANGE rom-rev] <AND> (κυριος <NOT> ιησους <NOT> Χριστός)

 

  Of course this is limited to collocation in a particular scope. If you want to permit words more than 5 words away then you'll need to resort to construct.

 

  ( is facilitated by negating the AGREE element. But none of the hits I get that way indicate that the word not in agreement is in the same clause or sentence. I would have to do more research to convince myself that no such case exists though. Do you have any examples ?

 

  Some of these queries are a little raw and I have not extensively studied the results so ping back with any refinements or questions.

 

Thx

D

 

[Donald Cobb]

Hi Daniel,

 

Today is crazy busy, so I'll take a closer look at you message a little later. Thanks for taking the time to look at this.

 

Re "1. You asked about Rom 6:18. That isn't a hit and I don't get it with this query. Did you mean something else ?" My bad. I meant to write Rom 16:18.

 

DC

[Donald Cobb]

Hello again Mark and Daniel,

 

It looks like what I can't find is an "exclude" option in a construct search. To be clear about what I'm trying to do: I'm looking for passages in the epistles + Revelation, 1) where Ἰησοῦς or χριστός are explicitly referred to the title κύριος (I've gotten there, thank you Mark!), and 2) more ambiguous passages, where κύριος alone might—or might not—refer to Jesus, depending on the context (i.e., κύριος, but not Ἰησοῦς or χριστός). The latter implies going through the results one by one and, in several cases, making judgments based on probability. 

 

In the latter case, there could, in theory, be verses having both Κύριος and either Ἰησοῦς or χριστός, as long as they are not in the same case, i.e., referring to the same person (e.g., ὁ κύριὸς ἤγειρεν τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἐκ νεκρῶν, or some such).

 

It's this second search that I'm having trouble putting together as a construct search (BTW, it's also an opportunity for me to work out how the construct search works, which is why I'm not just looking for workarounds). 

 

With the "NOT" option on the AGREE box of the construct, I only get one result—which is actually a false positive. This command seems to look for verses in which Κύριος and either Ἰησοῦς or χριστός are present, but only when there is a different case or number. So it's not what I'm looking for.

 

 

So if there is a way, via a construct search, to get where I'm trying to go, I'm game! Thanks again for your help!

 

DC

Edited May 15, 2019 by Donald Cobb

[Mark Allison]

How about this?
 

[Donald Cobb]

Thanks Mark,

 

I guess my explanations were too wordy. 

 

What I still can't figure out is this: "What I can't find is an "exclude" option in a construct search. To be clear about what I'm trying to do: I'm looking […] passages, where κύριος alone might—or might not—refer to Jesus, depending on the context (i.e., κύριος, but not Ἰησοῦς or χριστός)"

 

I can do this without doing a construct search, e.g., κυριος <NOT> (Ιησους, χριστος). But how do I get there with a construct search? The different options that have been floated don't get me there, unless I'm doing something wrong.

 

Sorry to bother you with this, I'm trying to get a handle on the more complex searches.

 

DC 

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Let me rephrase your goal a little and see if I have this right.

 

I believe you want :

 

  (a) clauses (without the syntax option that is basically sentences) containing κυρίος but neither Ἰησοῦς nor Χριστός.

  (b ) clauses with κυρίος and with either one of both of Ἰησοῦς and Χριστός where they are in a different case.

  © in the books of rom-rev

 

  I'm going to assume that the distance between words isn't so important here. There is only that one case 2 Cor 4:14 where the case is different and the words are within 5 words. But if you are looking for cases where the words are not syntactically related it probably only matters that they are in the same verse.

 

  Ok that was harder than I thought. There is something I cannot yet figure out in the construct (how to do the just κυρίος but neither Ἰησοῦς nor Χριστός) so this query is done as a construct with search box bits as well.

 

 

Thx

D

[Donald Cobb]

Many thanks for helping me with this Daniel.  Yes, that's a good restatement of what I'm looking for. 

 

 

 

  Ok that was harder than I thought. There is something I cannot yet figure out in the construct (how to do the just κυρίος but neither Ἰησοῦς nor Χριστός) so this query is done as a construct with search box bits as well.

 

 

 

This is the point that interests me as I try to get a handle on the construct feature. I'd like to know if it's possible to use "exclude" commands, because it would seem necessary for more complicated searches. Hopefully Mark (or someone else) will be able to help out here.

 

I don't have the syntax module, so I don't know if I can reproduce your search exactly. I note that you've combined a search panel query with the construct feature; I didn't know that was possible, so this is a helpful piece of information. 

 

Again, many thanks!

 

DC