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Two questions relating to each other.


Jesse Dornfeld

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First, I know I have a vocalization thing for the Greek Lexicon. Though I haven't used this extensively, I can definitely see practical uses for this. Which brings me to my two questions.

 

First, How much would an audio vocalization for the Hebrew Lexicon cost me?

 

Secondly (and much more personal) I am wondering if anyone would be so kind as to PM me when an item like this goes on sale.

 

Thanks,

 

Jesse

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By "audio vocalization of the Hebrew lexicon," are you referring to Hebrew audio for the Bible, or for an actual lexicon / dictionary?

 

If the former is the case, then see here.

 

If the latter is the case, you would need to specify which lexicon / dictionary you are talking about, and to my knowledge, there is no audio file to go with those (although some of the Hebrew grammars include *some* form of audio files).

 

Also, with regards to pricing, keep your eyes out for sales, which are constantly popping up.  In my short time here, I've already seen a couple storewide sales, and unless the Hebrew audio files would be excluded for that (I can't see why they would), then that may be your best opportunity.  Just have to keep your eyes open for the sales.

Edited by TYA
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By "audio vocalization of the Hebrew lexicon," are you referring to Hebrew audio for the Bible, or for an actual lexicon / dictionary?

 

If the former is the case, then see here.

 

If the latter is the case, you would need to specify which lexicon / dictionary you are talking about, and to my knowledge, there is no audio file to go with those (although some of the Hebrew grammars include *some* form of audio files).

 

Also, with regards to pricing, keep your eyes out for sales, which are constantly popping up.  In my short time here, I've already seen a couple storewide sales, and unless the Hebrew audio files would be excluded for that (I can't see why they would), then that may be your best opportunity.  Just have to keep your eyes open for the sales.

 

Hey, thanks so much for your helpful response.

 

I am looking at the vocalization for the Lexicon/Dictionary. 

 

I have not narrowed down what version of Lexicon I would want to start off with getting the vocalization for. I will have to weigh my options.

 

I am curious about these other grammars that may have audio files. Can you or someone explain that more please?

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I am looking at the vocalization for the Lexicon/Dictionary. 

 

I'm not aware of any such thing, but perhaps someone else can speak to this.

 

I am curious about these other grammars that may have audio files. Can you or someone explain that more please?

 

I meant that some grammars may have audio files incorporated within them.  This is the case for The First Hebrew Primer: The Adult Beginner’s Path to Biblical Hebrew, Third Edition (First Hebrew Primer).  See attached screenshot.  This doesn't mean that the entire grammar has accompanying audio, but only that some sections have "Oral Review."

post-35231-0-87618000-1558661003_thumb.jpg

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Jesse is referring to the Mounce Greek Dictionary to which we recently added audio clippings that pronounce each lexical entry. There is no equivalent for Hebrew, not even for the Kohlenberger/Mounce Hebrew Dictionary. The desktop versions of Accordance will "read aloud" any selection for you but those are computer voices which we "trained" to read Greek and Hebrew. They are not necessarily accurate.

 

Let's face it, however, there is really no agreement on how to pronounce NT Greek or OT Hebrew.

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There is no equivalent for Hebrew

 

That's easy.  There are plenty of us around here who could help out with recording Hebrew audio.

 

Let's face it, however, there is really no agreement on how to pronounce NT Greek or OT Hebrew.

 

But you've got me curious now to see how well your computer can do!

Edited by TYA
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Let's face it, however, there is really no agreement on how to pronounce NT Greek or OT Hebrew.

 

Why is that?

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Hebrew was not really spoken for almost 2,000 years. It was read and studied but the pronunciation evolved into two streams, Ashkenazi in Eastern Europe and Sephardi in the Mediterranean area and north Africa, Arab countries. Now there is modern Hebrew with its own pronunciation, closer to Sephardic.

 

Greek was spoken continuously and evolved over time so that modern Greeks cannot normally read or speak NT or Koine Greek.

 

It's the same for us English speakers: we could probably understand Shakespeare but Chaucer's dialect would be pretty much incomprehensible to us, and that's a much smaller period of time.

 

Anyway, nobody wrote pronunciation guides back then, there are no audio recordings, and no-one alive has heard the texts being read aloud by the original hearers, so we can only guess.

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I would add that the quickest way to be laughed at by biblical scholars is to use the modern Greek and Hebrew pronunciation.

And that the quickest way to be laughed at by contemporary Greek and Hebrew speakers is to use the scholarly pronunciation.

 

Curiously, I once read that if one were to read old Greek with modern Greek pronunciation, a sheep would go "fee fee" and not "baa baa." Onomatopoeia to the rescue! 

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Hebrew was not really spoken for almost 2,000 years. It was read and studied but the pronunciation evolved into two streams, Ashkenazi in Eastern Europe and Sephardi in the Mediterranean area and north Africa, Arab countries. Now there is modern Hebrew with its own pronunciation, closer to Sephardic.

 

Greek was spoken continuously and evolved over time so that modern Greeks cannot normally read or speak NT or Koine Greek.

 

It's the same for us English speakers: we could probably understand Shakespeare but Chaucer's dialect would be pretty much incomprehensible to us, and that's a much smaller period of time.

 

Anyway, nobody wrote pronunciation guides back then, there are no audio recordings, and no-one alive has heard the texts being read aloud by the original hearers, so we can only guess.

There is actually three earlier streams of tradition for Hebrew, and possibly more if you consider Ian Young and Robert Rezetko's work on Biblical Hebrew. While I do not agree with everything they say about periodization, I do have to wonder about some of the dialectology. The three streams I am referring to are Babylonian, Palestinian, and Tiberian, all with distinct vocalization systems.

Edited by MattChristian
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Although to be fair: you’re much more likely to get away with using modern Hebrew pronunciation to a scholar of ancient Hebrew texts than with using modern Greek pronunciation to a (non-Greek) scholar of Ancient Greek texts. In the Hebrew case, though, the differences are actually quite a bit smaller between the pronunciation traditions than in the Greek case. Greek pronunciation differences go beyond vowels to include consonants like ζ, consonant clusters like ντ, the loss of rough breathing, etc. Hebrew consonant pronunciation has changed too, but in many ways the traditions have converged (so both modern Hebrew and Western academic traditions will be fine with “Shabbat” rather than Ashkenazi “Shabbos,” I don’t think you’ll hear people pronounce ח with the historical sound equivalent to Arabic ح, and so on)

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I feel a bit ignorant for asking this, but how do I get the computer to tell me things like was mentioned?

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Jesse,

 

Be encouraged... you are actually smarter than your computer!  I'm sure of it!

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I feel a bit ignorant for asking this, but how do I get the computer to tell me things like was mentioned?

 

If you look in Accordance (or in google, or duckduckgo or ...) for something like Hebrew pronunciation, or Greek pronunciation you'll get a bunch of hits with stuff you can read. Many decent grammars will at least treat phonetics and phonology to some degree, and some diachronic aspects which can be helpful. Likewise, history of Hebrew is covered in some measure. Gesenius has some for example; also Waltke. For Greek, I know Wallace has a bit. Randall Buth has studied pronunciation and written on it (not in Acc). I use his Greek pronunciation - well as near as I can learning from written description. Of course are full histories of the languages if you want to settle in for a long read.

 

I didn't realise Acc had provided vocalization of words in lexica. I notice even the running text can be spoken - both English and Hebrew in addition to the Greek. The Greek is Erasmian it appears, thus not what I like to use. Hebrew I assume is the usual scholarly rather than a reconstructed historical form (to coin a name in rush). Interestingly, יהוה in HALOT, is pronounced אֲדֹנָי which makes sense (depending upon your perspective) but I wasn't expecting. It's a bit halting in Hebrew in some words - on Mac anyway. I've not tried Windows. No doubt this to Helen's point about computer voices trained to read and not necessarily accurate nor fluent, particularly on stretches of text.

 

Thx

D

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If you look in Accordance (or in google, or duckduckgo or ...) for something like Hebrew pronunciation, or Greek pronunciation you'll get a bunch of hits with stuff you can read. Many decent grammars will at least treat phonetics and phonology to some degree, and some diachronic aspects which can be helpful. Likewise, history of Hebrew is covered in some measure. Gesenius has some for example; also Waltke. For Greek, I know Wallace has a bit. Randall Buth has studied pronunciation and written on it (not in Acc). I use his Greek pronunciation - well as near as I can learning from written description. Of course are full histories of the languages if you want to settle in for a long read.

 

I didn't realise Acc had provided vocalization of words in lexica. I notice even the running text can be spoken - both English and Hebrew in addition to the Greek. The Greek is Erasmian it appears, thus not what I like to use. Hebrew I assume is the usual scholarly rather than a reconstructed historical form (to coin a name in rush). Interestingly, יהוה in HALOT, is pronounced אֲדֹנָי which makes sense (depending upon your perspective) but I wasn't expecting. It's a bit halting in Hebrew in some words - on Mac anyway. I've not tried Windows. No doubt this to Helen's point about computer voices trained to read and not necessarily accurate nor fluent, particularly on stretches of text.

 

Thx

D

It is pronounced that way out of tradition. in reading, the liturgical rendering is Adoni. The pointing in the MT is for HaShem "the Name."

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It is pronounced that way out of tradition. in reading, the liturgical rendering is Adoni. The pointing in the MT is for HaShem "the Name."

 

I've never been told that the vowel pointing was for "Ha'Shem", and actually, the shewa followed by the qamatz that you typically find under יהוה wouldn't work for "Ha'Shem."  Ha'Shem is what Orthodox Jews use in common speech, like a "low form" of the Name, whereas "Adonai" is pronounced in liturgy, sort of like a "high form" of the Name.

 

The vowel points shewa followed by the qamatz that you typically find under יהוה do, however, explain where many Christians derived the (wrong) pronunciation of "Je-hoe-vah."  I have heard that this was intentionally done by the Masoretic scribes to point away from the proper pronunciation; and I tend to believe it.

 

I've also heard that the vowel points above given to יהוה work for "Elohim," but I think this is limited to instances where the consonants of "Adonai" are followed by יהוה, such as in Deu 3:24, where we see אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִ֗ה (adonai y-h-v-h).  This construction appears numerous times in books like Ezekiel.

 

Even here though, the vowel points you see are shewa followed by chireq, and "Elohim" properly begins with khatef-segol.  Bottom line, Matt is correct that "it is pronounced this way out of tradition."  The Masoretic scribes don't want you pronouncing God's proper name.

Edited by TYA
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It is pronounced that way out of tradition. in reading, the liturgical rendering is Adoni. The pointing in the MT is for HaShem "the Name."

 

Yep - I was aware of that - and that's how I learned to pronounce it when reading actually.

 

What surprised me was that the computer reading had been taught it. Looking at how the Greek reading proceeds it only reads the letters present, so even abbreviated forms in running text in lexicon articles result in pronunciation only of what is present. The abbreviated words are not pronounced in full which is what a human reader would do. Even it you partially highlight a word it only reads what you highlighted not the whole word. So I was intrigued that some layer of translation had been inserted here. I wonder how nomina sacra are handled in Greek. I wonder if I can find an example. Yep - same - pronounces the letters as there.

 

Actually, it's very specific. Because merely highlighting the first 1 2 or 3 letters of יהוה results in pronunciation of just those letters. As soon as all four are highlighted you get אֲדֹנָ֣י.

 

So my curiosity was more from the computer reading implementation perspective than the Hebrew language, scandalous as that might be :)

 

That said, many thanx to you both for the notes on the pointing. I think I had heard that the vowel pointing leading to the Anglicization "Jehovah" before but I no longer recall where.

 

Thx

D

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Going back towards Jesse's original question in the thread, how difficult would it be for Accordance to "hire" people to record audio files for the lexica in the (or some) Hebrew lexicons and grammars.

 

I'm less knowledgeable on Greek, but there are about 8,000 unique Hebrew words in the Tanakh.  It couldn't take that long to go through and make an audio recording of each of them.

 

Of course, I realize that programming that into a lexicon would take some time as well, but I think this is doable.  For now, I recommend (for Jesse) buying the Hebrew audio readings that I originally recommended at the top of the thread as a means of learning Hebrew pronunciation.

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I would add that the quickest way to be laughed at by biblical scholars is to use the modern Greek and Hebrew pronunciation.

And that the quickest way to be laughed at by contemporary Greek and Hebrew speakers is to use the scholarly pronunciation.

 

Actually, Erasmian (scholarly) Greek has come under so much criticism in the last generation that modern Greek is now being used as the pronunciation method of choice in many biblical Greek classes; although no one is claiming that modern Greek is correct either. But since Erasmian Greek is definitely incorrect, modern is a better choice to some.

 

I learned Erasmian, of course. About once a month, I attend a local Orthodox mission church where the liturgy in the service is about 50/50 English and Greek. There are some native Greek speakers in the church, and they are very kind not to tease me too much about my Erasmian pronunciation when I try to ask about this or that phrase after the service. Fortunately, I can follow the Greek parts of the liturgy with the book in hand because of my previous classes in NT Greek, but I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to shake my Erasmian pronunciation. However, I’ve learned that if you’re unsure of the modern Greek sound, say the vowel with a long-E pronunciation and more times than not, it’s correct :-)

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I think TYA had some very useful products offered.

 

I will think more deeply about making a purchase of one of these.

 

Which would you [all] recommend I should get first?

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I think TYA had some very useful products offered.  I will think more deeply about making a purchase of one of these.  Which would you [all] recommend I should get first?

 

If you are referring to products with Hebrew audio, which would help you learn how to pronounce the Hebrew words in the Tanakh ("OT"), then I think the only option is this.  I highly recommend it for learners.  You will hear the modern Israeli mostly-Sephardic accent, and there are a variety of readers.

 

You can have it open in a window, and synced with a Bible so that the correct audio verses are always available to listen to (or else, just open it manually from a link).  Here is a screenshot showing how you can have it open somewhat minimally, just in case you want to have a quick listen to the verse while you read the Bible.

post-35231-0-98069600-1559718091_thumb.jpg

Edited by TYA
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However, I’ve learned that if you’re unsure of the modern Greek sound, say the vowel with a long-E pronunciation and more times than not, it’s correct :-)

What Rick said is true, that Modern Greek is an acceptable pronunciation in many arenas now.

After all, also as Rick said, Modern Greek is rich with all the vowels:

ah, eh, ee, ee, oh, and ee. :)

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If you are referring to products with Hebrew audio, which would help you learn how to pronounce the Hebrew words in the Tanakh ("OT"), then I think the only option is this.  I highly recommend it for learners.  You will hear the modern Israeli mostly-Sephardic accent, and there are a variety of readers.

 

You can have it open in a window, and synced with a Bible so that the correct audio verses are always available to listen to (or else, just open it manually from a link).  Here is a screenshot showing how you can have it open somewhat minimally, just in case you want to have a quick listen to the verse while you read the Bible.

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

Okay, so say the goal is learning Hebrew in a more holistic sense. If this is the case, which out of the two things you suggested do you think I should make a priority?

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Okay, so say the goal is learning Hebrew in a more holistic sense.

 

I need clarification on what you mean by "holistic" sense.  Can you break your goals down a little more definitively.  E.g.

 

1) I want to be able to identify words in the Hebrew Bible and understand what they mean.

2) I want to be able to pronounce the Hebrew Bible the way a modern Israeli speaker would.

3) I want to understand the various philosophies behind the origin and development of the Hebrew language. Etc.

Edited by TYA
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