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Include definite article in Hebrew tagging


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#1 TYA

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 10:06 PM

Great day all,

 

It would be nice if the morphological tagging for BHS-T / HMT-W4 could be expanded to include the definite article when it is assimilated, or implied in a word (see attached).

 

Thanks all.

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Edited by TYA, 29 May 2019 - 10:06 PM.

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#2 Donald Cobb

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 01:16 AM

+ 1


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#3 TyreeWD3

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 05:39 AM

+1


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#4 Michael J. Bolesta

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 08:42 AM

1+
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#5 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 08:52 AM

While I don't inherently have a problem with the idea Toma, I am wondering what this provides given that compoundPrepositionArticle already exists ? Is it just that you could more simply search for the article in either structure with a single command or ... 

 

Thx
D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

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#6 TYA

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 11:47 AM

I am wondering what this provides

 

Having the definite article will provide more complete information for those less knowledgeable in Hebrew, so that they can learn.

 

My philosophy here, D., is that more information is better (as long as it doesn't cause clutter, and in this case I don't believe it does).  I know that Dr. J. previously said something along the lines of "The tagging is meant for those already more knowledgeable in Hebrew" (paraphrasing here), but I would like to gently disagree.

 

I think the tagging is (or would be) a great place for newbies to learn some of the basics of Hebrew, and if Accordance would go for it, even the accenting of the Hebrew Bible.  (The other Bible software in the screenshot has an option to turn on/off the accenting in the morphology, which is a nice feature).

 

One of my first posts ever was "Include tenses in the BHS tagging" in which I argued that, since "perfect" (tense) appears consistently in the tagging wherever applicable, "imperfect" (tense) should also appear consistently, but it doesn't.  You'll notice that whenever there is a waw consecutive, for example, the word "imperfect" is simply left out of the tagging.

 

(I understand the Hebrew itself, converted forms, etc. but was just a bit dissatisfied with the lack of consistency in the tagging, which is what I argued in that thread).

 

I'm a stickler for consistency.  I believe it is always helpful, and ideal.  Why not let the tagging be a better tool for those who are newer to Hebrew?  That's what is at the heart of my request to include things like the tenses (consistently), definite article, and accents in the tagging.  The other software set a high standard for me, I suppose, and I don't believe Accordance should come behind.

 

I personally would like to know that I could recommend Accordance to others who are newer at Hebrew, and know that they are getting the greatest benefit out of the morphological tagging to aid them in their learning.  Hope this makes sense.


Edited by TYA, 30 May 2019 - 11:56 AM.

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#7 Helen Brown

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 12:07 PM

The tagging of the HMT-W4 belongs to and is managed by the Groves Institute at Westminster Theological College.We have no authority to edit it. We are only responsible for the searching and display. Perhaps what you want is an option to include the PrepositionArticle in a search for the Article. I don't know how hard that would be to do, and therefore whether the hassle is justified by the the convenience.


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#8 TYA

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 01:15 PM

Thanks, Helen.  I do remember you saying before that the tagging is out of your control, and I understand that.  I just know that 1) you guys at Accordance can do anything (i.e. you are always making terrific enhancements and improvements, which I've never seen the likes of with any other company).

 

And where this is a will, there is a way.  Perhaps one day a proprietary tagging could come into play as an option of some sort.  These are just thoughts, and not necessarily to be taken as my greatest desires.  I just like to submit feedback where I think it could be helpful.

 

P.S. I'm not suggesting that Accordance isn't already the best tool out there.  I just love the continual enhancements and improvements. Thanks for all you do!


Edited by TYA, 30 May 2019 - 01:20 PM.


#9 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 01:38 PM

Hi Toma,

 

  Thanx for that. Yes I get all that and I like consistency also. I did wonder about a small tweak along the lines of what Helen suggested above to simplify searches but that's not entirely what you're concerned with. Tagging is always a funny beast - evidently in this case Groves didn't see a need to treat these two case as the same, in some cases, even if treating them distinctly in others.

 

Thx

D


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Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

 

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/

 

 

Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
Intel Core Duo Intel i7 Kabylake

Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1


#10 farcas

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 04:49 PM

+1



#11 miketisdell

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 05:05 PM

Thanks, Helen.  I do remember you saying before that the tagging is out of your control, and I understand that.  I just know that 1) you guys at Accordance can do anything (i.e. you are always making terrific enhancements and improvements, which I've never seen the likes of with any other company).

 

And where this is a will, there is a way.  Perhaps one day a proprietary tagging could come into play as an option of some sort.  These are just thoughts, and not necessarily to be taken as my greatest desires.  I just like to submit feedback where I think it could be helpful.

 

P.S. I'm not suggesting that Accordance isn't already the best tool out there.  I just love the continual enhancements and improvements. Thanks for all you do!

A couple of thoughts:

1) Using the letters search, a word with the definite article attached can be found.

2) Finding words with the definite article can be done by searching for the article + the word being searched. This allows all lexical forms to be found.
3) In Hebrew, not all definite words have the attached article. Accordance allows you to search for definite nouns by using a tag, which will allow you to find definite nouns with or without the article.
 



#12 TYA

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 08:59 PM

A couple of thoughts:


1) Using the letters search, a word with the definite article attached can be found.

2) Finding words with the definite article can be done by searching for the article + the word being searched. This allows all lexical forms to be found.
3) In Hebrew, not all definite words have the attached article. Accordance allows you to search for definite nouns by using a tag, which will allow you to find definite nouns with or without the article.

 

Mike, these are great thoughts.  Just to reiterate though, my suggestion doesn't relate to searching, but only to the information displayed in the tagging, and that primarily so that those learning the Bible / Hebrew can get the most out of the tagging for learning purposes.

 

Thanks.


Edited by TYA, 12 June 2019 - 09:04 PM.





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