Leeor Gottlieb Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 The above discussion between Mike and Mendel is just a tiny example of how useful the Targums WordMap can be. We can now search for every case of ראה translated by גלי in any of the Torah Targums and have the answer in a matter of moments. A local disagreement on the exegesis of a particular Targum may arise, but the vast majority of cases will be clear-cut. And now they are easy to collate and analyze. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeor Gottlieb Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (Above I meant every case of ירד translated by גלי in the Targums) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendel Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Here is what I did: ירד is translated 46 times with נחת (to descend, bring down, be brought down) and 8 times as גלי (to reveal, to uncover).Than I made a construction.1. Condition: נחת is the translation of ירד. Nouns following or preceding the Verb within 1-3 words are בַּר, עֲבֵד, עַיִן, קוּלָה, עוֹף but never יוי (God). 2. Condition: גלי is the translation of ירד. Nouns following or preceding the Verb within 1-3 words are always יוי (God). Result: Onkelos uses always גלי for ירד to avoid anthropomorphism. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeor Gottlieb Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Mendel, this is an excellent example of what can be done with the Targums WordMap! Incidentally, Maimonides (Moreh Nevukhim 1:27) reached similar findings some 800 years ago. I guess he had his own WordMap! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendel Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) Mendel, this is an excellent example of what can be done with the Targums WordMap! Incidentally, Maimonides (Moreh Nevukhim 1:27) reached similar findings some 800 years ago. I guess he had his own WordMap! I know this Rambam very well. It's not surprising that he knew that since back then they were reading the Targum together with the Torah on shabbat, verse after verse, see Mishna Megillah 4:4 and Mishne Torah, Hilkhot Tefilla 12:2. This is also the custom of the Yemenite Jews till today. What is surprising is the fact that it goes back to the LXX. The LXX is not so consequent with that but check out Ex. 24:10. There is also a common feature in distinguishing between an altar for God (Θυσιαστήριον, מַדְבַּח) and an altar for idle worship (Βωμός, אֵיגֹור) and the LXX goes even beyond the Targum in distinguishing between עם referring to Israel (Λαός) and referring to gentiles (ἔθνος), not even Onkelos goes so far Edited February 4, 2020 by Mendel 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketisdell Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 I did very similar searches and here is what I found There are 96 occurrences of גלי in Gen-Lev, of those 32 occurrence are translations of ראה and 27 occurrences are translations of גלה and 8 are marked as translations of ירד; several of the instances where ירד is equated with גלי also contain either the verb ראה or a praise like לעניים. Of the 5 instances that remain, I am not sure whether these terms should be equated or whether the Targums simply omitted the idea of "going down." There are a number of places (like Ge. 31:13) where there is no mapping, and I wonder if these 5 cases should be similar. It would be good to extend the analysis outside these 3 books to see if there is a similar pattern but without the word maps the work is definitely more time consuming. The tool is very useful!! It will be nice when there are more books included in the maps. Note: I have discovered several bugs with Accordance [TEXT] that will be reporting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TYA Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) Incidentally, Maimonides (Moreh Nevukhim 1:27) reached similar findings some 800 years ago. I guess he had his own WordMap! I often wonder what the rabbis and scholars of "old" will think of us computer nerds in the world to come. How much they will chide us for having computers to do what they had to labor hard for. Edited February 4, 2020 by TYA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Mansfield Posted February 4, 2020 Author Share Posted February 4, 2020 I often wonder what the rabbis and scholars of "old" will think of us computer nerds in the world to come. How much they will chide us for having computers to do what they had to labor hard for. Every time I create a word list in Analytics, which can be done seemingly instantaneously, I seem to hear James Strong crying from the grave. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattChristianOT Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Every time I create a word list in Analytics, which can be done seemingly instantaneously, I seem to hear James Strong crying from the grave. Quote of the day right there- Hilarious LOLOL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketisdell Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) Every time I create a word list in Analytics, which can be done seemingly instantaneously, I seem to hear James Strong crying from the grave. LOL Edited February 4, 2020 by miketisdell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Mind you, he is probably pleased 125 years after his death his numbers still underpin a good deal of function in modern bible software. Thx D 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendel Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Can you combine this with a syntax search? I don't have any syntax module yet but the idea is: construct a search with God as subject to find all verbs that refer to him and check how Onkelos renders them. Is that possible? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketisdell Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Can you combine this with a syntax search? I don't have any syntax module yet but the idea is: construct a search with God as subject to find all verbs that refer to him and check how Onkelos renders them. Is that possible? Yes this should not be a problem (however) you will need to use multiple tabs (see my bug report regarding the [TEXT] tag) in the tech support thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Brown Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Yes, you can easily combine this with a Syntax search. But, it can get tricky to do lots of mixed RTL together, so if you are dealing with anything but the most basic WordMap TEXT searches, you'll want to build them in the construct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendel Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Yes this should not be a problem (however) you will need to use multiple tabs (see my bug report regarding the [TEXT] tag) in the tech support thread. But you can use the construct window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketisdell Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 But you can use the construct window. I don't know if this helps much i.e. the construct is itself another tab and still has to have a link and comparative statement in the destination tab. Combining [TEXT] commands with other commands in a logic string seems to be pretty problematic. What I have had to do so far is put each [TEXT] command in a tab all by itself and then have a master tab that combines the logic connecting all of the other tabs. For example if I create TABS called [Targs 1], [Targs 2], [Targs 3], [Targs 4] with a single [TEXT] command in each TAB (like " [TARG-T גלי]-@ ראה" for example) and then create a TAB called [MASTER] with the logic. For example: [CONTENTS Targs 1] <AND> [CONTENTS Targs 2] <AND> [CONTENTS Targs 3] <AND> [CONTENTS Targs 4] Placing the commands with the logic in the same tab does not appear to be possible because of the RTL bugs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Brown Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 This is not a good solution, and I do not recommend it. Your solution, using the CONTENTS, is only going to filter at the verse level your searches. If you want an actual accurate comparison, use the @ symbol in the entry box, or stack boxes in the construct. Using a construct is a great solution, and I recommend you check it out. Or, build the searches as I said with the popup set to Verses, and it will also work. You will potentially get wrong results (and way more effort!) with the solution posted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketisdell Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) This is not a good solution, and I do not recommend it. Your solution, using the CONTENTS, is only going to filter at the verse level your searches. If you want an actual accurate comparison, use the @ symbol in the entry box, or stack boxes in the construct. Using a construct is a great solution, and I recommend you check it out. Or, build the searches as I said with the popup set to Verses, and it will also work. You will potentially get wrong results (and way more effort!) with the solution posted here. I don't think you quite understand what I am attempting to do and I would put these in the same search box if Accordance allowed. I don't know any way to utilize the [TEXT] command in a construct, so if that is possible I am open to hearing. Right now I assume that I can create a search without the [TEXT command and link it to a TAB that has the [TEXT] command so that doesn't really improve the situation i.e. I would still need a master TAB that doesn't have any [TEXT] commands in it. To put it into perspective, here is an example of the commands in the SUB TABS and MASTER TAB Targs 1: " [TARG-T גלי]-@ ראה" Targs 2: " [TARG-T גלי]-@ ירד" Targs 3: " [TARG-T גלי]-@ גלה" Targs 4: " [TARG-T גלי]-@ ידע" Master: ([CONTENTS Targs 1] <OR> [CONTENTS Targs 2] <OR> [CONTENTS Targs 3] <OR> [CONTENTS Targs 4]) <NOT> גלי Note: Logic is read RTL; this produces a list of cases where the word mapping does not equal any of the items listed in the SUB TABS How would you accomplish this search with a construct or in a single search box (given the bugs that prevent most of this to be combined in a single search box) Edited February 4, 2020 by miketisdell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Brown Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 See Mendel's response: https://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/28197-cannot-enter-multiple-search-conditions-that-include-a-text-command/?p=138300 I'll reply there as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketisdell Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 See Mendel's response: https://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/28197-cannot-enter-multiple-search-conditions-that-include-a-text-command/?p=138300 I'll reply there as well. I already saw it and tried it. I had not noticed the TEXT object in the construct before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendel Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Yes, you can easily combine this with a Syntax search. But, it can get tricky to do lots of mixed RTL together, so if you are dealing with anything but the most basic WordMap TEXT searches, you'll want to build them in the construct. Can you tell me how to apply the Targums in the Syntax search? I made a syntax search and have all verbs reffering to Abraham. How do I get a summary of the verbs that the Targum is using for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Brown Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Add a TEXT command containing TARG-T * to the same column as the verb. Then, you'll be able to add Intertext to your analysis of the results. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendel Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Add a TEXT command containing TARG-T * to the same column as the verb. Then, you'll be able to add Intertext to your analysis of the results. I tried it. Accordance crashes immediatley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Brown Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Can yo umove this discussion to a new thread and post a picture of your construct? Does it crash on the search or the analysis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendel Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Can yo umove this discussion to a new thread and post a picture of your construct? Does it crash on the search or the analysis? https://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/28200-crash-using-targums-in-syntax-search/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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