Construct chain error?

[Bielikov]

I am trying to build a construct chain with a pronominal suffix. Is there an error in Accordance, or am I not building this correctly? Or understanding the results correctly? See attached screenshot, basically in column one I have a CONSTRUCT NOUN and in column 2 I have an ABSOLUTE NOUN + SUFFIX PRONOMINAL (oh, thinking in Hebrew where column 1 is to the right and 2 on the left)

 

Note, some of the absolutes do not have a pronominal suffix. For example, Genesis 1:20, and 1:30. I also notice that in many instances it does not turn to red some of the construct words.  All in Genesis 2:1 is not shown in red. Man in Genesis 2:18. Or how about Genesis 2:20, another strange thing, עֵ֖זֶר כְּנֶגְדּֽוֹ, where our model dictates that help ought to be in the construct state, but it is in the absolute, while כְּנֶגְדּֽוֹ is in the construct, contrary to our model. Any help would be most welcome.

[Michel Gilbert]

You asked for help, and this is what I have time for. I can only speak about the traditional understanding of the construct in Hebrew. I’m not a trained linguist like Dr. Holmstedt, and since he frequents these forums, I will leave it to him, if he chooses, to explain these things in modern linguistic terms.

The construct relationship is from the  latin constructus, pp. of construere - "to pile up, build together." A construct chain is two (or three, rarely four) nouns (, participles, or adjectives) in a row with no other part of speech intervening (there are a few exceptions). The construct noun(s), etc. has/have a construct ending, and the absolute has an absolute ending. The article on the absolute noun, etc., makes the whole chain definite.

Sometimes a construct chain has a pronominal suffix on the absolute, nomen rectum, or governed noun. Traditional grammars don’t speak much about this, except to say that the types of vowel changes and reductions that occur on a noun with a pronominal suffix are (usually) the same as in construct nouns. That is why the chain I mentioned above is tagged as construct ff. construct ff. suffix.

So, without going any further, you can see that עזר כנגדו is not a construct chain, etc.

Everything I’ve said is in the traditional grammars.

 

Michel

 

[Bielikov]

Thanks, Michael, yes, I am consulting grammars and youtube and any reference I can to help me learn. I have been studying who the definite article and the proper noun affect noun definiteness. Now, I am trying to see examples of pronominal suffix construct chains that affect noun definiteness. I am trying to learn how to construct such a search in Accordance and all the help is very welcome. I understand some of the theory of it from the grammars, but I like to see how it is applied in the Hebrew Scriptures, as this really helps me cement new concepts in my mind. Thanks again. So, any help in creating a construct chain in Accordance?

[Robert Holmstedt]

i don't see a pic of the search in the original post.  

[Bielikov]

i don't see a pic of the search in the original post.  

 

Thanks, Robert, here it is. Any help in constructing it correctly would be most appreciated.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Bielikov

[Michel Gilbert]

This will find most construct chains, and if you increase "Within" to 3, will find even the rarest ones. It also returns nouns, etc. with suffixes:

 

 

 

This will find construct chains with suffixes:

 

 

 

[Bielikov]

 

This will find most construct chains, and if you increase "Within" to 3, will find even the rarest ones. It also returns nouns, etc. with suffixes:

 

Construct.png

 

 

This will find construct chains with suffixes:

 

 

 Construct Chain with Suffix.png

 

Michel, thanks so much, I plan to study this carefully!

[Bielikov]

 

This will find most construct chains, and if you increase "Within" to 3, will find even the rarest ones. It also returns nouns, etc. with suffixes:

 

Construct.png

 

 

This will find construct chains with suffixes:

 

 

 Construct Chain with Suffix.png

 

Michel, and what if I just wanted nouns with suffixes, what could I do to make that happen? My construction did not work for that. Thanks!

[Michel Gilbert]

Gregorio,

Just drag Noun into the first column and Suffix/pronominal into the second column, and use Within 1.

This is all the time I have today.

Regards,

Michel

 

[Ken Simpson]

The pronominal suffix is treated as a separate “lexical unit” that just happens to be attached to a noun in this case. As Michel says, if you put the suffix item in the 3rd column and then WITHIN 1 above it, it will find all nouns with a pronominal suffix within one word of a lexical item in the construct state (in your case here, a noun). Remember other units like adjectives and participles can be in the construct or absolute state as well. 
if you replace [NOUN CONSTRUCT] with [ANY CONSTRUCT] then you will star to see even more examples of constructs (if you needed any more!) and then to really go wild replace [NOUN ABSOLUTE] with [ANY ABSOLUTE]. 

Enjoy. 
Ken

[Bielikov]

Gregorio,

 

Just drag Noun into the first column and Suffix/pronominal into the second column, and use Within 1.

 

This is all the time I have today.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

 

 

Understood, no hurry Michel, but that construction is the one that does not work.

[Michel Gilbert]

You "just wanted nouns with suffixes." The search returned 13406 verses:

 

 

[Bielikov]

The pronominal suffix is treated as a separate “lexical unit” that just happens to be attached to a noun in this case. As Michel says, if you put the suffix item in the 3rd column and then WITHIN 1 above it, it will find all nouns with a pronominal suffix within one word of a lexical item in the construct state (in your case here, a noun). Remember other units like adjectives and participles can be in the construct or absolute state as well. 

if you replace [NOUN CONSTRUCT] with [ANY CONSTRUCT] then you will star to see even more examples of constructs (if you needed any more!) and then to really go wild replace [NOUN ABSOLUTE] with [ANY ABSOLUTE]. 

Enjoy. 

Ken

I want to thank you for these ideas. I will work on all these suggestions and report back, Ken.

[Bielikov]

The pronominal suffix is treated as a separate “lexical unit” that just happens to be attached to a noun in this case. As Michel says, if you put the suffix item in the 3rd column and then WITHIN 1 above it, it will find all nouns with a pronominal suffix within one word of a lexical item in the construct state (in your case here, a noun). Remember other units like adjectives and participles can be in the construct or absolute state as well. 

if you replace [NOUN CONSTRUCT] with [ANY CONSTRUCT] then you will star to see even more examples of constructs (if you needed any more!) and then to really go wild replace [NOUN ABSOLUTE] with [ANY ABSOLUTE]. 

Enjoy. 

Ken

I want to thank you for these ideas. I will work on all these suggestions and report back, Ken.

 

 

This will find most construct chains, and if you increase "Within" to 3, will find even the rarest ones. It also returns nouns, etc. with suffixes:

 

Construct.png

 

 

This will find construct chains with suffixes:

 

 

 Construct Chain with Suffix.png

 

Hello Michel, based on your suggestions I have played around and found a solution to that particular challenge. Thanks.

The pronominal suffix is treated as a separate “lexical unit” that just happens to be attached to a noun in this case. As Michel says, if you put the suffix item in the 3rd column and then WITHIN 1 above it, it will find all nouns with a pronominal suffix within one word of a lexical item in the construct state (in your case here, a noun). Remember other units like adjectives and participles can be in the construct or absolute state as well. 

if you replace [NOUN CONSTRUCT] with [ANY CONSTRUCT] then you will star to see even more examples of constructs (if you needed any more!) and then to really go wild replace [NOUN ABSOLUTE] with [ANY ABSOLUTE]. 

Enjoy. 

Ken

I want to thank you for these ideas. I will work on all these suggestions and report back, Ken.

 

 

This will find most construct chains, and if you increase "Within" to 3, will find even the rarest ones. It also returns nouns, etc. with suffixes:

 

Construct.png

 

 

This will find construct chains with suffixes:

 

 

 Construct Chain with Suffix.png

 

Hello Michel, based on your suggestions I have played around and found a solution to that particular challenge. Thanks.

Ok, I think it uploaded now. A few slight modifications from your suggestions, Michel.

[Λύχνις Δαν]

I wish I had more Hebrew but this looks odd to me. I had expected something like this to work :

 

 

But against HMT-W4 and BHS it does not - it finds no hits.

But against ETCBC is finds tons of hits. When you compare the tagging you find that what the ETCBC tags as the absolute nouns at the end of these chains, HMT/BHS tag as construct. That appears to be why the search doesn't work as expected. These appear to be conscious tagging decisions.

 

Can anyone explain why ?

 

Thx

D

[Robert Holmstedt]

Let's back this up, because it's become a bit confused. 

 

The first search that Gregorio produced would find any construct noun followed by EITHER a pronominal suffice OR an indefinite absolute noun. That's the result of putting both the "absolute noun" and the "pronominal suffix" in the second column. (By the way, I'm assuming the use of "within 1" here, since without forcing the immediate adjacency of the items results in thousands of mishits). 

 

To find *just* nouns in construct with a pronominal suffix, drop the noun in the second column.

 

And this is the answer to Daniel's question -- a noun that has a pronoun attached is considered to be bound by *everyone* (except, apparently, the ETCBC folks). Think of it this way: "king of the people" (> Eng. "the people's king")  is structurally parallel to "king of his" (> Eng. "his king"). A "suffixed pronoun" is simply the cliticized version of a pronominalized noun. And "absolute" noun is neither bound to another noun nor has a pronoun attached. 

 

If you wanted to find noun in construct to, say, a definite noun, then you'd need to add the article in a column between the bound noun and the absolute noun (with "within 1" linking the first and second columns and another "within 1" linking the second and third columns). 

[Michel Gilbert]

Gregorio had started another topic, "Hebrew Construct Panel," in which Mark suggested a construct search at https://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/28294-hebrew-construct-panel/?p=139023. Gregorio's screenshot, the one he mentioned in his first post here (that is missing), corresponds exactly to Mark's. Part of the confusion comes from my responding to that screenshot and his thoughts there, which he was following up on here. And, you can see how it became a bit confused from there.

[Bielikov]

Let's back this up, because it's become a bit confused. 

 

The first search that Gregorio produced would find any construct noun followed by EITHER a pronominal suffice OR an indefinite absolute noun. That's the result of putting both the "absolute noun" and the "pronominal suffix" in the second column. (By the way, I'm assuming the use of "within 1" here, since without forcing the immediate adjacency of the items results in thousands of mishits). 

 

To find *just* nouns in construct with a pronominal suffix, drop the noun in the second column.

 

And this is the answer to Daniel's question -- a noun that has a pronoun attached is considered to be bound by *everyone* (except, apparently, the ETCBC folks). Think of it this way: "king of the people" (> Eng. "the people's king")  is structurally parallel to "king of his" (> Eng. "his king"). A "suffixed pronoun" is simply the cliticized version of a pronominalized noun. And "absolute" noun is neither bound to another noun nor has a pronoun attached. 

 

If you wanted to find noun in construct to, say, a definite noun, then you'd need to add the article in a column between the bound noun and the absolute noun (with "within 1" linking the first and second columns and another "within 1" linking the second and third columns). 

 

Robert, how do I know if I have availability to see your "A Brief User’s Guide for the Accordance Hebrew Syntax Database (Holmstedt)" book? Never mind, I found it under syntax. Thanks. I think this will be helpful to me.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Bielikov

[Λύχνις Δαν]

And this is the answer to Daniel's question -- a noun that has a pronoun attached is considered to be bound by *everyone* (except, apparently, the ETCBC folks). Think of it this way: "king of the people" (> Eng. "the people's king")  is structurally parallel to "king of his" (> Eng. "his king"). A "suffixed pronoun" is simply the cliticized version of a pronominalized noun. And "absolute" noun is neither bound to another noun nor has a pronoun attached.

Many thanx for this Robert. Very helpful.

 

Thx

D

[Bielikov]

I have systematically been going through these very helpful comments. I also read much of Robert's tips and came across a treasure house of information and PDFs at https://www.accordancebible.com/Documentation 

 

My own search parameters which I mentioned earlier (10:19 pm, yesterday, 1 March, see screenshot above) has worked perfectly for finding the third type of "construct chain with noun definiteness," the pronominal suffix ones. It worked very, very well and I added another fifty plus study cards to my set. And yes, I realize that in many cases what would be "the house of my father" is translated without the definite noun as "my father's house." But the point is that I am now understanding this very well and now will move to my next construct chain in my grammar. Robert, today I ordered one of your suggested readings, a dictionary of grammatical terms. Also, I ordered another syntax book that looked very promising and interesting.