Pastor Jonathan Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Had a question about the inclusion of the Qur'an with Accordance. Is there a reason for the Qur'an to be in a Bible program? Maybe I am reading more into it than not but is it being lifted to the same level as the Scriptures, or is it academic reasons? I am just a little confused because Accordance, in my mind, holds to a very high view of Scripture. Thank you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Allison Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) We absolutely hold a high view of Scripture. As you suggested, the Qur'an has been added for academic reasons (and not without a lot of discussion internally). From a personal perspective, I wanted it included in Accordance. My parents were missionaries in the Middle East (I was raised in Jordan and Lebanon) and my undergraduate degree is in Missiology. IMHO, we need to be able to communicate from a position of knowledge and understanding, and resources like the Qur'an help us do that. In fact, it's our goal to include additional resources related to world religions for that very reason. Edited June 16, 2020 by Mark Allison 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leopold Green Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 I hope I don't get a warning point for this but I have always seen Accordance as an invaluable tool to support the study of Near Eastern religions (primarily Judea-Christianity) and the Qur'an is certainly an branch of this (albeit a late one) of this - that said Islam predates Protestantism which is very well reflected in Accordance. It is obvious that the major (probably majority) user base of Accordance is Evangelical with many studying for or holding paid/unpaid roles in their churches. But it isn't exclusively that though and the academic side of Accordance is also essential as well as the Jewish side.. I would be really concerned if dogma overtook Accordance and started dictating what could or couldn't be included... and whilst it is a truism it remains important to separate out the faith from those people who use it to justify their aggressive ends - there are plenty of examples in the history of Christianity where Christianity has been used to justify crimes every bit as appalling as ISIS (and others who have sought their justification in the Qur'an)... not at all wishing to give offence 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Mansfield Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 It's also helpful to have the Qur'an to understand the context of some of the writings of the Early Church. For instance, much of the movement against icons in the 8th and 9th centuries was the result of Muslim influence/pressure on the Eastern Church based on the teachings in the Qur'an. One of the titles we released this week, Three Treatises on the Divine Images by St. John of Damascus addressed and persuasively put an end to the iconoclasm movement within the Church. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukfraser Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Before i retired, i worked for a very large multinational organisation and many of those i worked closely with and developed friendships with were from other faiths. For me, having resources in one place on a mobile device for those meaningful talks In depth over coffee or when socialising is important and i am very thankful for all the accordance team do. plus im encouraged by marks comments, particularly 'it's our goal to include additional resources related to world religions for that very reason.' But also (and not without a lot of discussion internally). for me, meaningful dialogue with others is important at any level and its surprising where the journey takes you. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanHuber Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 I don't know Arabic and don't have the nicely-prepared/tagged/etc version, but there is a translation of the Qur'an in the Accordance exchange. I have used it to look up passages when reading books that reference it such books on apologetics or world religions (like the IVP pocket guide or the essay at the back of the ESV Study Bible). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Hi Rick, Does Accordance have the Greek text of Damascus' ? Sounds like a very interesting read. Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Mansfield Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Hi Rick, Does Accordance have the Greek text of Damascus' ? Sounds like a very interesting read. Not yet. The SVS title I mentioned earlier takes its translation from Bonifatius Kotter (ed.), Die Schriften des Johannes von Damaskos, 5 vols., PTS 7, 12, 17 (= On the Divine Images), 22, 29 (Berlin-New York: Walter de Gruyter, 1969–88) -- accord://read/Treatises_Divine_Images#46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Not yet. The SVS title I mentioned earlier takes its translation from Bonifatius Kotter (ed.), Die Schriften des Johannes von Damaskos, 5 vols., PTS 7, 12, 17 (= On the Divine Images), 22, 29 (Berlin-New York: Walter de Gruyter, 1969–88) -- accord://read/Treatises_Divine_Images#46 ok - thanx Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.D. Riddle Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Accordance offers a variety of texts (for example Ugaritic Baal Cycle, Context of Scripture, non-biblical Dead Sea Scrolls and other Jewish writings, Josephus), and no claim is made that any of them are being lifted to the same level as the Bible. I met an exhibitor for Qurʾan Gateway at the annual meetings of the Evangelical Theological Society and the Society of Biblical Literature last year. I believe their intentions were quite similar to those that have been stated above. A.D. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Jonathan Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) Thank you all for the info. I will try to respond to everyone here in one post instead of many. @Mark: Thank you for the answer. I had thought Accordance had a high view of Scripture, and with the ability for language study, I am very happy with what I have used. The fact that it is there for academic reasons, is fine and I am glad to hear that is the case. My issue I was concerned as that Accordance was going the direction of upholding the Qua'ran on par with the Bible. A blending of religions into a universal direction, as it were. That was what had me concerned. Knowing the push Satan is using to try and deceive everyone by bringing all religions together was what concerned me. I am glad to hear that this was not done lightly. Thank you. @ Leopold Green: I do agree that things had been done in the past in the name of Christianity. That is not what I am trying to do, whitewash History. History is what it is and we learn from it. So I do not take any offense to what you mentioned. I will say as a side note that I would have and do have issues with any branch of Christianity that forces which is contrary to what Jesus said to live peacably with others as is possible with me alone. My job is to tell the truth. The Holy Spirit brings the conviction. The moment I stop trying to just share the truth and move into force, I step into the Holy Spirit's role. @R. Mansfield: Thank you for that info. I appreciate it. I do believe there is a connection between the writings as each was not written in a vacuum. My biggest issue, and one that I have expressed, was that there was a push of universalism. That was it. @Ukfraiser: Agree. As I had and do say, I am not an expert in any one thing but I am able to converse on several different levels with many different people. I learn something new but I am at least not ignorant completely . @Jonathan Huber: I am glad to see that it is available for reference work as it correlates to our belief as well. Thank you. Again, thank you all for the help. I had searched for an answer and was really looking and finally decided this was the place to ask. I know I am not as active on here as others but I do read when I run into problems. Thank you all for the help. Edited June 16, 2020 by Pastor Jonathan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Allison Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 It was a good question Pastor Jonathan, and I'm glad you asked! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabian Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Accordance offers a variety of texts (for example Ugaritic Baal Cycle, Context of Scripture, non-biblical Dead Sea Scrolls and other Jewish writings, Josephus), and no claim is made that any of them are being lifted to the same level as the Bible. I met an exhibitor for Qurʾan Gateway at the annual meetings of the Evangelical Theological Society and the Society of Biblical Literature last year. I believe their intentions were quite similar to those that have been stated above. A.D. I hope Qur'an Gateway makes an Apparatus to the Quran. Which we can have in Accordance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Jonathan Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 Accordance offers a variety of texts (for example Ugaritic Baal Cycle, Context of Scripture, non-biblical Dead Sea Scrolls and other Jewish writings, Josephus), and no claim is made that any of them are being lifted to the same level as the Bible. I met an exhibitor for Qurʾan Gateway at the annual meetings of the Evangelical Theological Society and the Society of Biblical Literature last year. I believe their intentions were quite similar to those that have been stated above. A.D. Thank you for the info. I wasn't trying to accuse Accordance of doing that without first asking what the purpose was in the first place. Knowing the information that has been shared, I think it is good, useful and interesting. I just am very observant for any form of "unity" which breaks down the God of the Bible and the Holy Scriptures. It was a good question Pastor Jonathan, and I'm glad you asked! Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketisdell Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 (edited) From an accademic perspective it has been very helpful. I have been reviewing a number of translations that attempt to harmonize Scripture with the Qur'an and being able to search through the Qur'an has made identification these issues much easier. Sadly it hasn't stopped the flood of these translstions. Here is my recent review of the Wycliffe Tchadien translation. https://biblicalmissiology.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Tchadien-Arabic-Review-R2a-1.pdf Edited June 18, 2020 by miketisdell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Weaks Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 I humbly disagree with Mark; I don't think the original question was a good one. I reject premise of homogeneity expressed in it. Accordance shouldn't be designed as a tool for only one stream of Christian tradition any more than a screwdriver should be designed for a plumber and not an electrician. Accordance offers theological works that I find a repulsive distortion of Christian discipleship. I don't install them; problem solved. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewster Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 I don't know Arabic and don't have the nicely-prepared/tagged/etc version, but there is a translation of the Qur'an in the Accordance exchange. I have used it to look up passages when reading books that reference it such books on apologetics or world religions (like the IVP pocket guide or the essay at the back of the ESV Study Bible). https://www.accordancefiles1.com/exchange/tools.htm - Qu'ran (Pickthall Translation) - Mohammad Marmaduke Pickthall's English translation of the Qu'ran (requires Acc 5.7) Thank you Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabian Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 May someone add a Qur'an as text to the Exchange. Then the person is able to import their own. https://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/25073-how-to-install-a-quran-in-accordance/?hl=quran Greetings Fabian BTW. I would love if we have also a verse mapping with verses 0 for the headings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketisdell Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Coincidentally, I just had another opportunity to use this module today. A bible translator, in a discussion this morning had suggested that اب (father) in Arabic could only be understood as indicating a biological relationship, and for this reason they needed to use alternative words to describe God. Using non-familial terms for 'Father' and 'Son' has been a very significant and ugly issue in Bible translation. In responding to the argument, it only took a few moments to find a couple of references in the Quran itself that used 'father' in a non-biological way. I also found one reference that was an error (I have reported this issue). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewster Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 I would love if we have also a verse mapping with verses 0 for the headings. +1 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Jonathan Posted June 18, 2020 Author Share Posted June 18, 2020 +1 ! Coincidentally, I just had another opportunity to use this module today. A bible translator, in a discussion this morning had suggested that اب (father) in Arabic could only be understood as indicating a biological relationship, and for this reason they needed to use alternative words to describe God. Using non-familial terms for 'Father' and 'Son' has been a very significant and ugly issue in Bible translation. In responding to the argument, it only took a few moments to find a couple of references in the Quran itself that used 'father' in a non-biological way. I also found one reference that was an error (I have reported this issue). One thing I am thankful for is that one of our church members is Arabic. Good, solid Christian. He has been a help to me in many areas of study and I am thankful for that. If it weren't for him, I would be lost in some of the readings, LOL! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Jonathan Posted June 18, 2020 Author Share Posted June 18, 2020 I humbly disagree with Mark; I don't think the original question was a good one. I reject premise of homogeneity expressed in it. Accordance shouldn't be designed as a tool for only one stream of Christian tradition any more than a screwdriver should be designed for a plumber and not an electrician. Accordance offers theological works that I find a repulsive distortion of Christian discipleship. I don't install them; problem solved. Joe, in a way I agree but I also disagree. From a purely academic level, it is fine. The question, however, was not about making Accordance fit "one mold". The question was based on the very important question of truth. In our culture, you have many who are deceived by Satan into believing that there are many ways to God. There are many roads. Yet if there are many ways, or in the classic argument, if everything is true, then nothing is. Universalism is a very dangerous belief that has and does lead many to eternal death. So the question I asked was based on that notion. Is God's Word true, or is it not. Is Christianity (I am using this in the traditional way as there are many things that are passed off as 'Christian' that Christ is no where in its midst) true, or is it not? If Christianity and Islam, the Bible and the Qur'an are equal, then neither are true. Both claim exclusivism (they are the only way to Heaven) and we cannot have equal standing. There is one truth. There is one way. There is one collection of Scripture that points that direction. My question was whether Accordance was blending that concept. As has been discussed already, Accordance does not from what I am seeing. Instead, it seems, at least as been said, it is for an academic research. Therefore, the screwdriver illustration is flawed. Because one thing is temporal and very much universal. The other, as Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but through Me." That is either true, or it isn't. Now, to what I agree with. I do not think that Accordance should limit its resources to just one concept or thought. I believe it should be broad. But I asked because I wanted to make sure that while research is broad, and truth is nailed down and upheld to its fullest degree. I hope that clarifies why I asked my question. Now, if I mis-read what you were saying, then just ignore this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Mansfield Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Before this discussion goes any further, please let me remind everyone of a couple of points in the forum guidelines. Two points from the guidelines of note: Accordance users comprise a very diverse group of people. This group includes people from all walks of life: students, scholars, rabbis, priests, ministers, missionaries, "laypeople," -- you name it. This group also includes members of various religious groups and theological traditions. In order to promote meaningful discussion about Accordance among such a diverse group of people, we do ask that you follow these guidelines whenever you post a message to the Forums. and Discussion of Biblical interpretation, points of theology, and personal beliefs is inappropriate for this board, as are personal announcements and off-topic requests. While we encourage such interchange, we ask that you discuss these issues privately, rather than using the Forums. Content directly attacking the character of a person or group is also prohibited. We appreciate everyone's participation in our forums, as well as everyone's personal zeal, but it's important to (re-)familiarize ourselves with the forum guidelines now and then. Thank you. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Jonathan Posted June 18, 2020 Author Share Posted June 18, 2020 Before this discussion goes any further, please let me remind everyone of a couple of points in the forum guidelines. Two points from the guidelines of note: Accordance users comprise a very diverse group of people. This group includes people from all walks of life: students, scholars, rabbis, priests, ministers, missionaries, "laypeople," -- you name it. This group also includes members of various religious groups and theological traditions. In order to promote meaningful discussion about Accordance among such a diverse group of people, we do ask that you follow these guidelines whenever you post a message to the Forums. and Discussion of Biblical interpretation, points of theology, and personal beliefs is inappropriate for this board, as are personal announcements and off-topic requests. While we encourage such interchange, we ask that you discuss these issues privately, rather than using the Forums. Content directly attacking the character of a person or group is also prohibited. We appreciate everyone's participation in our forums, as well as everyone's personal zeal, but it's important to (re-)familiarize ourselves with the forum guidelines now and then. Thank you. R. Mansfield, Thank you. Sorry for distracting from my initial question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanHuber Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Happily, we don't have to agree with the various folks at Accordance on everything in order to use and value the software. It's just a tool... a really, really, really, really, really great tool that I use every single day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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