TDNT or NIDNTTE ?

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Hi All,

 

  Once again I see TDNT is on sale and I find myself wondering about whether I might buy it.

 

  I have read some, not much, on it and it appears to be considered to have some serious methodological weaknesses. Alas without Barr's book or Silva's review (rather more difficult to get hold of though very interesting given his involvement in the NIDNTTE) I am not able to find a really good explanation of those weaknesses.

 

  There is a rather good article on NIDNTTE and its issues which makes frequent reference to Silva's review. And in fairness that, in concert with other comments on NIDNTTE elsewhere, leads me to wonder whether one oughtn't to wait for NIDNTTE rather than to buy TDNT. That said, neither NIDNTT nor NIDNTTE are free of blemishes as I understand it. Mind you, as far as I can no lexicon exists which cannot be criticized in some manner. The real trick being knowing how to use it while avoiding mistakes engendered by its faults.

 

  So the questions are these really:

 

  1. Can someone point me to a decent critical treatment of the TDNT issues, other than Barr or Silva. I am reading Silva (Biblical Words and their Meaning, not his WTJ review which I would like to read but it's hard to obtain) on this now and he repeats Barrs concerns with which he appears to largely concur.

 

  2. For those who have and use both TDNT and NIDNTTE what do you find to be the strengths and weaknesses of each ?

 

Thx

D

[Mark Allison]

Personally, I love NIDNTTE's "List of Concepts" which are very similar to Louw & Nida's Index of Semantic Domains. 

[R. Mansfield]

TDNT has flaws that are well known and documented. Nevertheless, it’s a “classic” NT reference work. I believe it’s worth having. I reference it now and then. If you know it’s weaknesses, you can use its strengths with discernment to your benefit, especially in comparison with other resources.

[Fabian]

Die beiden sind auch auf Deutsch verfügbar. Aber leider nicht in Accordance.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Fabian

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Hi Rick,

 

TDNT has flaws that are well known and documented.

It's precisely because they are not known to me and that I could not find clear documentation of these faults nor exactly how the NIDNTTE addresses them, even if only partially, that I asked. I am getting a fair amount out of Silva's book which is pertinent. I can obviously get Barr too and probably will. Nonetheless, any other pointers or contributions would be good.

 

It appears that NIDNTTE would be superior, but I have a fair amount of respect for established older works which, though faulty perhaps in some way, nonetheless contain valuable information which is not bettered by more recent works. Hence my interest also in comparative experiences.

 

Thx

D

[Daniel Francis]

http://www.kerux.com/doc/0302R1.asp

 

This critical overview might be of help.

 

I definitely find TDNT to be of immense value myself.

 

-dan

Edited August 16, 2020 by Daniel Francis

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Thanx Dan. Yes I had already read and it provides some material for sure, though it basically points at Barr/Silva.

 

Thx

D

[Daniel Francis]

I suppose it should also be noted some are very concerned for the anti-Semitic tendencies of the General editor Kittel (who before the rise of Nazis was actually quite pro Jewish). Much Christian literature form the time had at least a thin veneer of anti-Semitic nature that while perhaps not as bad as stuff you might find in the middle-ages still show it is a product of it's age with defects common to the time. Many of the scholars who worked on TDNT were very pro jewish and some might argue it likely would never have gotten permission to publish had Kittel not joined the Nazi party. I perhaps have not used TDNT enough to come across more disturbing anti-Semitism but I have little doubt it is likely lurking in the earlier volumes. 

 

-dan

[Λύχνις Δαν]

I was aware of at least some of what you say here concerning Kittel, but I have not looked into its impact on the work itself but I haven't run across any serious discussion of it either.

 

Thx

D

[miketisdell]

I use both. I find NIDOTTE a little more up to date, but the scholarship does get a little more liberal in places. 

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Hi Mike,

 

I use both. I find NIDOTTE a little more up to date, but the scholarship does get a little more liberal in places. 

 

Did you mean NIDNTTE rather than the OT variant ?

 

Thx

D

[R. Mansfield]

Hi Rick,

 

It's precisely because they are not known to me and that I could not find clear documentation of these faults nor exactly how the NIDNTTE addresses them, even if only partially, that I asked. I am getting a fair amount out of Silva's book which is pertinent. I can obviously get Barr too and probably will. Nonetheless, any other pointers or contributions would be good.

 

It appears that NIDNTTE would be superior, but I have a fair amount of respect for established older works which, though faulty perhaps in some way, nonetheless contain valuable information which is not bettered by more recent works. Hence my interest also in comparative experiences.

 

I think that if you have interacted with Silva's critiques, you know the main limitations of word studies. I don't believe Silva's concerns negates the total value of the TDNT, but it's always something to have a reminder in the back of one's head while reading.

 

TDNT is seen as tainted by some from Rudolph Kittel's alleged anti-semitism as Dan mentioned, but like Dan, I've yet to come across anything overtly anti-Semitic in the reference work, but I'm not the best one to assess it. According to IVP's Pocket Dictionary of New Religious Movements, Kittel "sought to prove Jesus wasn't really Jewish at all" (accord://read/Pocket_New_Movements#75). I've not come across anything remotely like this in the TDNT.

 

Two points I want to make about the issue with Kittel's personal views.

1. Kittel was a general editor of the original German edition of the series, but there are multiple authors involved in writing the articles, not Kittle alone. In other words, the TDNT is not solely the work of Kittel but a much broader project of German New Testament scholarship in the first half of the 20th century.

    

2. [What follows here is my personal opinion, and should not be seen as an official statement on the issue from Accordance.] Let me begin by saying that anti-semitism is abhorrent and evil just as is any form of racism because it directly violates the Genesis 1:26 principle that people are made in the image of God (or from an Orthodox perspective, literally icons—εἰκών, LXX—of God) and worthy of dignity, respect, and fair treatment. Acknowledging this, however, the sad reality is that human beings are flawed (also very much a biblical principle), and they are especially often captive to their historical culture. If I start to reject every person in history who expressed anti-semitic views, I'm also going to have to eliminate the likes of Martin Luther, John Chrysostom, and many others. I work under the assumption that these individuals who have passed on no longer hold anti-semitic views, now in their current experience of existence. This is a faith statement, of course. Regardless, I can read the works of great men and women from history while knowing full well that some of what they produced will be inspiring and insightful, while some other perspectives may be very flawed, even repulsive from today's standards. I suppose we all have our lines to draw, but that's as best as I can describe my personal interaction with historical writers. Again, discernment while reading is the key.

On a tangental note, and I've mentioned this in other discussions before, I used to know of an individual who used the one volume "Little Kittel" as his primary work for devotional reading. Usually studying a different Greek word every day. The condensed volume and its much shorter articles provided him with just the right amount of content for everyday reading and allowed him to learn something new most days. In doing this, he had read through the one-volume Kittel numerous times in his life. Unfortunately, I don't remember who this is. On the off chance it is you, or you know who mentioned doing this, please let me know.

[miketisdell]

Hi Mike,

 

 

Did you mean NIDNTTE rather than the OT variant ?

 

Thx

D

 

Yes, I have both publications for both OT and NT. However, I do most of my work in the OT so I just wrote that on auto pilot. 

[R. Mansfield]

I use both. I find NIDOTTE a little more up to date, but the scholarship does get a little more liberal in places. 

 

Question out of curiosity and for sake of clarification: which one do you find more liberal? My experience has been that the TDNT is a bit more left-leaning than the NIDNTTE.

[Diatheke76]

Get both!