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#41 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 10:40 PM

I'm not sure I totally follow you... First, you can't get an iPhone without data coverage. Second, you wouldn't want an iPhone if you don't have AT&T coverage anyway. So your only option to run the Logos app would be a iPod Touch. This would also be true for an Accordance app since you wouldn't buy an iPhone. And if you can only use your Logos app on an iPod Touch where you have WiFi, you might as well just use your laptop and the full program. In this particular case, it seems to me that you would rarely use any Bible app on your iPod Touch, unless you only had a desktop Mac. But you still might load Logos app onto your iPod Touch if it was free, which it is!

In any case, you would want to load a Bible app which didn't need to be connected over WiFi. And it would still make sense to load the FREE Logos app on your iPod Touch for the times you are connected to WiFi

So I would still use both.


I don't have or want an iPhone, for the reasons you specify. But I have friends in this state who do have them. If they travel outside of the data coverage areas, they lose the ability to use any iPhone app that depends on a connection to the internet. They may still be able to make calls (voice coverage is more extensive than data coverage), but they don't have data access. Anyone who travels with their iPhone to the the Midwest, West, or New England runs the risk of this problem.

I do, however, want a Touch, and I don't want to be limited to a wifi network for Bible software on a Touch. I live in an area where wifi coverage is sparse, and I would want access to Bible software--and potentially to other related resources--while I'm out and about: during a visit with a parishioner, while I'm waiting at the doctor's office, while riding in a car to a meeting, etc. None of those are likely to have wifi, nor would I want to be lugging my laptop along at those times. So a Bible app that requires internet access is useless to me and people like me.

If/when I had a Touch, and Accordance were to create such an app I might think about getting it, but I would also have to have another non-internet dependent app as well, probably Olive Tree's Bible Reader or Mantis, although I've also considered BibleXpress.

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#42 DanG

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 11:12 PM

I don't have or want an iPhone, for the reasons you specify. But I have friends in this state who do have them. If they travel outside of the data coverage areas, they lose the ability to use any iPhone app that depends on a connection to the internet. They may still be able to make calls (voice coverage is more extensive than data coverage), but they don't have data access. Anyone who travels with their iPhone to the the Midwest, West, or New England runs the risk of this problem.

I do, however, want a Touch, and I don't want to be limited to a wifi network for Bible software on a Touch. I live in an area where wifi coverage is sparse, and I would want access to Bible software--and potentially to other related resources--while I'm out and about: during a visit with a parishioner, while I'm waiting at the doctor's office, while riding in a car to a meeting, etc. None of those are likely to have wifi, nor would I want to be lugging my laptop along at those times. So a Bible app that requires internet access is useless to me and people like me.

If/when I had a Touch, and Accordance were to create such an app I might think about getting it, but I would also have to have another non-internet dependent app as well, probably Olive Tree's Bible Reader or Mantis, although I've also considered BibleXpress.

Lorinda


I live in the rural Midwest so I understand coverage problems. Nonetheless, I have an iPhone and it works well in most towns, but not so good between many of them.

In your situation I can understand why you would not want to make Logos your PRIMARY app on an iPod Touch. But I still have two thoughts...

First, chances are that an Accordance app that allowed access to all your modules would most likely follow a similar model. For example, it would take LOTS of space to download all the modules I own for Accordance. So I'm not sure you'd be any better off with an Accordance app.

Second, I can't for the life of me understand the resistance in this forum to a FREE Bible app for the iPhone, regardless of who makes it. From the Logos website, here's what you get for free:

If you are not a Logos 4 user, but log in to the app using a logos.com account (you can register for free if you don't have one) then, in addition to the 31 Bibles Logos offers, you will have access to the following 31 books as well:
Morning and Evening
Necessity of Prayer
Pilgrim's Progress
Power Through Prayer
Selected Sermons of George Whitefield
Sermons on Several Occassions
St. Paul the Traveller and Roman Citizen
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Commentary Critical & Explanatory on Whole Bible (JFB)
Diving For Pearls in God's Treasure Chest
Easton's Bible Dictionary
Imitation of Christ
In His Steps
Training of the Twelve
Why Four Gospels?
Systematic Theology (Strong)
New Nave's Topical Bible
Strong’s Concise Dictionary of the Words of the Hebrew Bible and the Greek Testament
An Introduction to Ecclesiastical Latin
Dictionary of the Vulgate New Testament
Holbein’s Bible Woodcuts
The Summarized Bible: Complete Summary of the Old Testament
The Summarized Bible: Complete Summary of the New Testament
Traveling in the Holy Land through the Stereoscope
The New Testament in Greek (Westcott and Hort)
KJV Cambridge Paragraph English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
KJV Cambridge Paragraph English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
Glossary of Morpho-Syntactic Database Terminology
Lexham English Bible / New Testament
LEB English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
LEB English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear

That's 62 books for free. I don't believe there's any other Bible app that makes so much available for FREE! You can't even get the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge for Accordance. Why in the world would anyone NOT take advantage of this FREE offer? It doesn't take up much space on your iPhone or iPod Touch. And even if you rarely use it, it seems like it might come in handy once in a while. And did I mention it doesn't cost you anything? Somebody help me understand this.

Edited by DanG, 17 November 2009 - 11:15 PM.


#43 Robb Brunansky

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 12:10 AM

First, I'm not sure what is involved in signing up for a free Logos account, but I'm not sure I want them having much of my personal information. I am very selective about who gets that online.

Second, I doubt you'd find much resistance here to the free aspect of the app (aside from needing a logos account as mentioned above). I think what people are saying is that the iPhone app is not in and of itself a good reason to choose Logos over Accordance. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my take on it.
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#44 ryangeer

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 08:17 AM

Mike Hughes, et al... At this point my question is based on a desire for information - why exactly are you posting on here? You've already made your choice, right? And you seem pretty much opposed to switching to the pricey app that is Accordance... I'm sincerely not trying to be rude - it really is a matter of curiosity to me why you would continue posting on here...

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Edited by ryangeer, 18 November 2009 - 08:23 AM.


#45 mikes

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 09:41 AM

Mike Hughes, et al... At this point my question is based on a desire for information - why exactly are you posting on here? You've already made your choice, right? And you seem pretty much opposed to switching to the pricey app that is Accordance... why you would continue posting on here...

I have the same question, I've almost started ignoring this thread a couple times, but if someone has an actual question or need they'd like community input on, I'm up for pitching in... still waiting...

#46 Rick Bennett

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 10:03 AM

Second, I can't for the life of me understand the resistance in this forum to a FREE Bible app for the iPhone, regardless of who makes it. From the Logos website, here's what you get for free:


For my part in this discussion, my comments should not be read as "resistance." Your terminology about being "online" and "phone service" was ambiguous, and I merely wanted to point that out so that users would not get the wrong idea about that app. For what it's worth, I have commented elsewhere that for a web-based free app, it isn't bad at all.
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#47 macmike

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 12:51 PM

Mike Hughes, et al... At this point my question is based on a desire for information - why exactly are you posting on here? You've already made your choice, right? And you seem pretty much opposed to switching to the pricey app that is Accordance... I'm sincerely not trying to be rude - it really is a matter of curiosity to me why you would continue posting on here...

Thanks in advance for your reply.


I can't understand why people are so opposed to Logos when it has a legitimate use as does Accordance. I think Accordance would have more users if the payment plan was better. I may buy some more Accordance, if I can ever figure out what I need to get to have the books I want, later. You know they need a list to compare all packages so you can go look up books and see which package has the majority of the books you need. That is all I was trying to say. Here you have people that have a loathing for Logos there you see people with a Loathing for Accordance. I believe though that Logos has more users and when everything gets done on the Mac platform, they are only on Alpha 3 right now you will see more. Especially since both platforms will be covered without having to run parallels, fushion, and etc.

Nough said,

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#48 ryangeer

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 01:17 PM

I can't understand why people are so opposed to Logos when it has a legitimate use as does Accordance. I think Accordance would have more users if the payment plan was better. I may buy some more Accordance, if I can ever figure out what I need to get to have the books I want, later. You know they need a list to compare all packages so you can go look up books and see which package has the majority of the books you need. That is all I was trying to say. Here you have people that have a loathing for Logos there you see people with a Loathing for Accordance. I believe though that Logos has more users and when everything gets done on the Mac platform, they are only on Alpha 3 right now you will see more. Especially since both platforms will be covered without having to run parallels, fushion, and etc.

Nough said,

Mike Hughes


Respectfully, Mike - you quoted my question but still haven't answered it. If you are serious about buying/investigating Acc. - "figure out what I need to get to have the books I want, later", many users have told you how to go about getting the answers you seek... if not, the question remains - to what end are you continuing to post here? I'm honestly just curious.

#49 Robb Brunansky

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 01:42 PM

Mike,

Here is that list you were looking for: http://www.accordanc...ges/library.php. There's also this one for original language packages: http://www.accordanc..._collection.php.

I can't understand what is so hard about reading these lists and figuring out what comes with which package. They really couldn't have made it any easier to understand.

EDIT: The comparison charts were mainly what I was referencing on these pages. Thanks Rick!

Edited by Robb Brunansky, 18 November 2009 - 01:48 PM.

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#50 Rick Bennett

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 01:47 PM

Mike,

Here is that list you were looking for: http://www.accordanc...es/library.php. There's also this one for original language packages: http://www.accordanc...collection.php.

I can't understand what is so hard about reading these lists and figuring out what comes with which package. They really couldn't have made it any easier to understand.


Robb,

You need to remove the period from the end of your link (after php). Note also the comparison charts on those pages.
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#51 DanG

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 04:08 PM

First, I'm not sure what is involved in signing up for a free Logos account, but I'm not sure I want them having much of my personal information. I am very selective about who gets that online.

Second, I doubt you'd find much resistance here to the free aspect of the app (aside from needing a logos account as mentioned above). I think what people are saying is that the iPhone app is not in and of itself a good reason to choose Logos over Accordance. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my take on it.


This is a little frustrating.

You don't NEED to register in order to use the Logos app--that's only if you want to use the additional 31 free books.

Second, you don't NEED to own, buy or even look at Logos in order to use their app. You don't need to switch or choose something over something else. It's just free.

#52 basurf

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 02:08 AM

Just because you (we) love Accordance does not mean we have to avoid the fact that it is difficult to figure out all the options/packages (and pricing).

Many people will say, just call sales, etc etc... However, that doesn't address the point...it is difficult (confusing) enough to the potential buyer that they make the comment in the first place. There's no reason to sugar coat that flaw.

That being said, I think Accordance is hands down the best Bible software for the Mac. It is worth investing the time and effort figuring out what to purchase (and the price) because you are getting the best product available (if you are a mac user).

However, Logos shifting towards unity among the platforms is nice. I really like the fact that my iphone basically has access to what I've purchased through logos on my windows platform. It is definitely still in beta though...actually I think 4.0 and the iphone app are still in alpha. I personally wouldn't abandon Accordance just because of that...it will remain my goto Bible app on my Mac (which is my primary platform). I find the Logos mac version lacking in elegance, function, power, and performance compared to accordance. In addition, they got a huge demerit for charging for the mac engine while giving the pc engine away for free (that has finally changed as of 4.0).

So in summary, my personal opinion is...
Accordance is the top dog on a mac platform
Accordance needs an iphone app badly
Logos has a new direction with 4.0 that looks good
Logos 4.0 still needs quite a bit of work
...I will not stoop to becoming a "fan boy" on any product, including Accordance, therefore I have no problems talking about things that need improving, even if other "fans" defend or overlook them ;)

#53 Donovan R. Palmer

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 02:34 AM

...I will not stoop to becoming a "fan boy" on any product, including Accordance, therefore I have no problems talking about things that need improving, even if other "fans" defend or overlook them ;)


I personally welcome these debates, enjoy product comparisons like the ones that Rick Mansfield puts out and think the shootouts like the one at SBL are great. The reason for this is that I think it inspires the makers of great products to be even better. I was greatly pleased that Accordance fared so well at the shootout and I can imagine the team came away with ideas to improve things even more. The other product developers will no doubt will do the same. The end result is that we have better and better tools for Bible study.

What I don't think is helpful is if we start to treat our tools like a "girl friend"... if I start to look at another product I am made to feel like I am cheating somehow. It's just a tool to me. Maybe we all might be using exactly the same tools 25 years from now, maybe we won't. I don't think to be a fan of something you have to make a life commitment. ;-)

Anyhow, again congrats on the Accordance team on making a great showing at SBL. I have read good things in tweets and blogs about it. If there is another shootout next year, maybe it will be with Accordance 9? Come on accordanceguy, give us a hint. B) B)

Edited by Donovan R. Palmer, 23 November 2009 - 03:44 AM.


#54 jackcav

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 09:19 AM

I personally welcome these debates, enjoy product comparisons like the ones that Rick Mansfield puts out and think the shootouts like the one at SBL are great. The reason for this is that I think it inspires the makers of great products to be even better. I was greatly pleased that Accordance fared so well at the shootout and I can imagine the team came away with ideas to improve things even more. The other product developers will no doubt will do the same. The end result is that we have better and better tools for Bible study.

What I don't think is helpful is if we start to treat our tools like a "girl friend"... if I start to look at another product I am made to feel like I am cheating somehow. It's just a tool to me. Maybe we all might be using exactly the same tools 25 years from now, maybe we won't. I don't think to be a fan of something you have to make a life commitment. ;-)

Anyhow, again congrats on the Accordance team on making a great showing at SBL. I have read good things in tweets and blogs about it. If there is another shootout next year, maybe it will be with Accordance 9? Come on accordanceguy, give us a hint. B) B)


Superb post, Donovan. I use both Accordance and Logos and attempt to remain active in both forums. There is far too much either/or on both sides of this fence. Why should there be a fence at all? If you cannot afford both, then pick your favorite and allow others the same opportunity without defaming their intelligence, spirituality, or parentage. I find a lot of these discussions on both forums to be a pooling of ignorance with almost every poster blasting the other software usually with very little accuracy.

It's a tool! It's a thing! You may prefer one thing or another, but when you love things

#55 A. Smith

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 11:32 AM

Perhaps this belongs on the 'complete the switch' post, but here I am. Move it if you want.

I spent some time with Logos 4 at ETS last week, and I must say, I was unimpressed. It was like playing with vista after experiencing os 10.6. It looked better than previous versions, but seemed to be a weak imitation of mac/accordance. It is difficult to compare usability because because I have some fluency in Accordance but not at all in Logos. I will tell you though, even with a logos designer there with me, i was still not able to search and read the text as easily as I am in Accordance. I concur with what others have said here in several regards. I like accordance because the program is simple and streamlined. It lets me work on the text without having to wade through a lot of books I'll never use. I understand how some like a library on the computer and it would be nice if Accordance offered a greater diversity of titles (I'm thinking academic monographs here), but my purpose in buying bible software is to study the text. Accordance does this better than anyone. I also agree, regrettably, that the purchase process is confusing. When I made my first purchase, I was frustrated that my purchase had to be reviewed by someone at accordance before it was processed. However, after buying several additional modules, I understand that Accordance is determined to make sure its customers get precisely what they need without paying for stuff they don't. I appreciate the process, even if it is a bit frustrating. Nonetheless, it is intimidating for those who haven't yet purchased. I can compare Accordance to some churches I've been to: great stuff once you get inside, but there are a lot of hoops to go through first and many get frustrated by the process. I have thought about this and I would like to offer helpful advice for improving the process, but I don't know. The problem is almost intangible to me. Oh well, hopefully someone knows what I'm talking about.

At the end of the day, though, I will say this (put this in the 'complete the switch category'): I use accordance because it gets out of the way and lets me study the bible; not merely study books about the bible, but the bible itself. It's the same thing I tell PC users. I use a mac because it gets out of the way and lets me do what I want and need to do. Accordance does the same thing. It just works.

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#56 William B

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 11:42 AM

I have to say im new to the whole area of computer bible software and did not find the purchasing process difficult. I found the comparison charts easy enough and knew just by the names that I wanted the library collection and not the scholar - brief checking confirmed this. There were no problems for me in ordering either. Perhaps its just me, I tend to be very thourgh before parting with large sums of money, I checked every book title compared it and decided what I felt was most appropriate for me at this time. I think all the information (and more) is there for users to make an educated choice of the most appropriate package, perhaps navigation can be improved but I felt its good to show that it is working fine for some. :)

#57 A. Smith

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 12:12 PM

Actully,after posting I went to the website and I must say, the charts make it very simple. I don't think the site was set up this way when I bought. I'll retract my statements about the purchase process.

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#58 mikes

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 05:54 PM

I think there have been HUGE strides made in the last year or so with respect to understanding and selecting the right package. Of course things could be easier, but I would argue that it is actually simpler to choose your package to start off with then any other vendor for the Mac.

I think there definitely could be work done to help people with interest or need in more specific areas. For example, a more complete "Greek Studies" add-on package that doesn't force you to choose scholar's edition. Maybe something like "First Year Greek" with more resources for "Second Year Greek", etc.. same for Hebrew, Early Church studies, and even LXX (wow... now it's actually an amazing array of choices!).

Another thing that would be of interest (to me at least) would be commentary bundles that help lower the cost and allowed me to focus on a type (e.g. Technical, Pastoral, or Devotional) or, my personal favorite, by book or particular study area. I know that publishers haven't woken up to this approach, and I'm sure they know their business better then I do, but I can speak for myself (and what I've heard from others, I would end up spending more buying what I need when I need it rather then making a choice and a massive purchase for a particular commentary set. With NICOT and NICNT coming in the next year (I'm hoping?) I'll likely try desperately to save up enough to buy more then I need to avoid spending 2x-5x the cost of a commentary.




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