Paul Daunno Posted October 24, 2010 Share Posted October 24, 2010 I wasn't sure where else to ask this question and it's not necessarily specific to Accordance but this community is always very helpful so I figured I'd ask it here. Also, keep in mind that I'm just a regular joe using Accordance for personal Bible study and have no other formal training http://www.accordancebible.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif I've been studying the Greek word hupotasso (KEY G5293) with my primary text being the ESVS. I decided to do the same KEY search in all of my tagged texts which consist of GNT-TRS, NIV-G/K, KJVS, ESVS and NAS95S. The first thing I noticed was the number of Verses found in the GNT-TRS and KJVS was 32 but in the others it's 31. The number of Hits found in the GNT-TRS and KJVS are both 40 but in NIV-G/K it's 38, ESVS it's 37 and NAS95S it's 43. I looked through all of the results to try and determine where the differences were. One example is 1 Cor 15:27 where G5293 is found 3 times in the GNT-TRS, NIV-G/K, KJVS but only twice in ESVS and 6 times in the NAS95S! Apparently not all translations are created 'equal' with respect to how they were translated from the underlying original language. In my simplistic view it seems that if the Greek uses the word hupotasso 3 times in a verse (like 1 Cor 15:27) that English translations would also contain 3 of the same or similar English word with those words being tagged. I realize translating the Bible is not that simple which is why I'm asking the question. Since every English Bible translation for the most part seems to read differently I'm not sure which one is 'right' or 'better' than another so I frequently reference multiple translations (thank you Accordance for making that an easy thing to do!). I hope what I'm asking makes sense. If someone can give me a high-level explanation that would be very helpful. I'm also open to any advise you may have for this regular joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Echols Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Hey Paul, I'm not a bible scholar, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night . Most of the differences you see, I believe, are from the different manuscripts that the different versions use. The KJV uses the Textus Receptus as it's underlying text while the NASB and ESVS use more recent greek texts. You can read up on the different versions here among many other sites... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorinda H. M. Hoover Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Part of what you are seeing is, as Chris suggested, a difference in which Greek text the translators worked with. In the GNT-TR, the word in question appears 40 times in 32 verses. In the GNT-T (better known in non-Accordance circles as the NA27), the WH, and TIS, the word appears only 38 times in 31 verses. In terms of 1 Cor 15:27, my best guess is that the NAS95S uses two English words to translate each occurrence of hupotasso in the underlying Greek text, and that both English words are tagged for hupotasso. I can't check this, as I don't have the NAS95S. Not sure what's going on with the 2 occurrences in ESVS; I don't have that translation, either. It's possible it's a tagging error, I run across those in my tagged texts from time-to time. (In fact, there's an error in the tagging in the NRSVS in this verse. The first "subjection" in the NRSVS is linked with hupo instead of with hupetaxen.) I did check the ESV online, and as near as I can tell, all three occurences of "subjection" in that verse should be linked to hupotasso (probably in combination with other English words) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 The KJV uses the Textus Receptus as it's underlying text while the NASB and ESVS use more recent greek texts. I think you mean older texts, only published more recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 I've been studying the Greek word hupotasso (KEY G5293) with my primary text being the ESVS. I decided to do the same KEY search in all of my tagged texts which consist of GNT-TRS, NIV-G/K, KJVS, ESVS and NAS95S. The first thing I noticed was the number of Verses found in the GNT-TRS and KJVS was 32 but in the others it's 31. The number of Hits found in the GNT-TRS and KJVS are both 40 but in NIV-G/K it's 38, ESVS it's 37 and NAS95S it's 43. I looked through all of the results to try and determine where the differences were. One example is 1 Cor 15:27 where G5293 is found 3 times in the GNT-TRS, NIV-G/K, KJVS but only twice in ESVS and 6 times in the NAS95S! Apparently not all translations are created 'equal' with respect to how they were translated from the underlying original language. In my simplistic view it seems that if the Greek uses the word hupotasso 3 times in a verse (like 1 Cor 15:27) that English translations would also contain 3 of the same or similar English word with those words being tagged. I realize translating the Bible is not that simple which is why I'm asking the question. Since every English Bible translation for the most part seems to read differently I'm not sure which one is 'right' or 'better' than another so I frequently reference multiple translations (thank you Accordance for making that an easy thing to do!). I hope what I'm asking makes sense. If someone can give me a high-level explanation that would be very helpful. I'm also open to any advise you may have for this regular joe. I just looked at the greek text of NA27 (GNT-T) and TR and both have the exact same readings for 1 Cor 15:27. See screen shot: So the difference is definitely in the tagging of the English texts... It looks like NAS95S is tagging 'put... in subjection' as KEY G5293... this was the case, at least, when I searched for this key number... however, when I had GNT-T and NAS95S open in parallel and I hovered over the Greek verb it only highlighted 'put'... when I hovered over each occurrence of the English 'subjection' it highlighted the wrong Greek word (according to word order) then when I hovered over the third occurence of Eng 'subjection' it highlighted all three occurrence of upotasso in GNT-T... it seems something kooky is up with the tagging... it is all inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Jenney Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Hi, everyone! First, there is an error in the current rev of the ESVS at 1 Cor. 15:27. The first instance of subjection is tagged G5259, instead of G5293. [You'll notice that "subjection" and the following word "under" both have G5259. Only the latter is correct.] Second, the tagging in NAS95S here is, well, a bit weird. The problem is that ὑποτάσσω is translated "subject" or "put under subjection." The NAS95S translators used the phrase. So, what's a tagger to do with all the other words? In the case of NAS95S, he tagged both "put" [the verb] and "subjection" [the noun] as G5293, probably in an effort to direct all English-only readers to the correct Greek word. Unfortunately, it totally messes up any statistical analysis. Most modern translators try to use the natural grammar of the "target language" (in this case, English). It increases reader comprehension by lowering the "grade" of the translation's reading level. [The target for most publications in the US is eighth grade level.] This means a phrase may be chosen because it is smoother or more natural. Paul, it's time for you to learn Greek. Anyone as motivated and detail-oriented as you should have no trouble with it. You'll be amazed at the difference in the accuracy of your studies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen Brown Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Please understand: The NIV-G/K was tagged by Zondervan, the NAS95 by Lockman, the HCSB by Holman, and they own those tags. We have tagged the ESV, JPS, NRSV, and NKJV ourselves, and we can edit those tags. I have sent the reports on the incorrect tags to the taggers, but it may be a few weeks before we can post those corrections as all are busy getting ready for the ETS and SBL meetings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Daunno Posted October 25, 2010 Author Share Posted October 25, 2010 Paul, it's time for you to learn Greek. Anyone as motivated and detail-oriented as you should have no trouble with it. You'll be amazed at the difference in the accuracy of your studies! Dr. J, I am motivated and yes I'm definitely a bit detail-oriented too http://www.accordancebible.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif I definitely have an interest in learning more about the original languages. I got a little excited about a Hebrew word yesterday too so I'm going to need to learn that language as well! http://www.accordancebible.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif. I'll suppose I'll start by learning some Greek first. This recent post provided a good list of books to getting started. Thanks everyone for your help and insights! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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