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#21 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 10:55 AM

Well, that is the problem for me. I am trying to decide what will work" for me when I don't necessarily have the option to try everything.

Thanks for all the responses, they have been very helpful. If anyone has any experience of loading a commentary on an ereader, I love to hear about the experience.


Want the look and feel of an old leather book on your iPad? I just saw this design on AppleLinks this morning. The company is also offering a special Holiday price: http://www.powisicase.com

Now, if Santa will just leave me an iPad under the tree...

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Edited by Timothy Jenney, 21 December 2010 - 10:56 AM.

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#22 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 11:00 AM

Well, that is the problem for me. I am trying to decide what will work" for me when I don't necessarily have the option to try everything.


If your budget can sustain it, one way to test this out would be to purchase one commentary in Accordance and see how that works for you.

Another option, if you're in the right area, is to go to a free training seminar to get a feel for how things work.

Everyone works differently. I find that my print commentaries stay on the shelf a lot of the time, because I prefer to work electronically. But someone else might experience things differently.

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#23 Daniel Francis

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 12:19 PM

There is a try before you buy right on the main page of accordance, and logos base program i think can be installed free to try too...although you may have to buy some small resource to try with it, but there are some books as cheap as $10. But I do know that Logos will refund non physical purchases if you are not satisfied (they simply cancel your licenses and you can't use them). If your computer is older Logos might not even work well for you though, you can go look at the forums over there, some people are not happy with Logos Mac at all. I am having few issues with it but it is not in the same class as Accordance in interface and speed and stability.

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#24 Ken Han

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 12:38 PM

I have not always felt this way, but for me the convenience of Accordance is becoming more valuable than the pleasures of owning the physical book. Its convenience goes beyond the speed with which you can access information. Books have to be managed: put back in the right shelf place (or good luck trying to find it if you have a sizable library), can't be lent out and return damaged (if it returns at all!), doesn't sit taking physical space and collecting dust, my kids can't draw in it or rip out the pages, and etc. While these things are not directly related to Accordance per se, for me they add value. I, too, am gradually replacing some of my books with Accordance modules where available. It is a little annoying that I'm paying twice for the same content. But I guess there's nothing really I can do about it…

The few things I wonder about are: 1. whether all commentaries contain page info when copied as citation (if you need to prepare for publication or if you copy-paste back and forth different apps this information is valuable for future reference), 2. if Accordance ever goes out of business, then what happens to all my investments? (But this applies to all software produced content, including BibleWorks, Logos, etc.)

Finally, I don't think the Accordance module price is directly comparable to Amazon price, if you consider all the things that Accordance lets you do with it over the physical book.
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#25 Daniel Francis

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 04:01 PM

I have not always felt this way, but for me the convenience of Accordance is becoming more valuable than the pleasures of owning the physical book. Its convenience goes beyond the speed with which you can access information. Books have to be managed: put back in the right shelf place (or good luck trying to find it if you have a sizable library), can't be lent out and return damaged (if it returns at all!), doesn't sit taking physical space and collecting dust, my kids can't draw in it or rip out the pages, and etc. While these things are not directly related to Accordance per se, for me they add value. I, too, am gradually replacing some of my books with Accordance modules where available. It is a little annoying that I'm paying twice for the same content. But I guess there's nothing really I can do about it…

The few things I wonder about are: 1. whether all commentaries contain page info when copied as citation (if you need to prepare for publication or if you copy-paste back and forth different apps this information is valuable for future reference), 2. if Accordance ever goes out of business, then what happens to all my investments? (But this applies to all software produced content, including BibleWorks, Logos, etc.)

Finally, I don't think the Accordance module price is directly comparable to Amazon price, if you consider all the things that Accordance lets you do with it over the physical book.


Not having support would not be a good thing but you would continue to own the resources, and be able to use them. Just when OS 10.9 Calico comes out it may no longer function properly, although it is program so well I think the OS updates break very little, in Accordance. Also depends on what happens if Accordance went under a company might buy up the rights and rename it, ie: Wordsearch Mac (yes i realize Wordsearch mac is sort of a real program already, but it;s just basically the windows version running in an xwind environment. I don't think anyone wants to consider that fate and unless you know something I don't I hope Accordance is on healthy ground.

-dan

#26 A. Smith

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 04:52 PM

Not having support would not be a good thing but you would continue to own the resources, and be able to use them. Just when OS 10.9 Calico comes out it may no longer function properly, although it is program so well I think the OS updates break very little, in Accordance. Also depends on what happens if Accordance went under a company might buy up the rights and rename it, ie: Wordsearch Mac (yes i realize Wordsearch mac is sort of a real program already, but it;s just basically the windows version running in an xwind environment. I don't think anyone wants to consider that fate and unless you know something I don't I hope Accordance is on healthy ground.

-dan



The issue of resource preservation over time is a major issue that has been discussed at length elsewhere (maybe here, i don't know). I remember reading something linked from the Bibleworks site that talked about the inherent difficulties in all of this. The reality is, at some point, it will likely be unsupported. This is life in the digital world. Now, Accordance may last a millennia and over updates and upgrades, but at some point, it's bound to happen. If I can find the link to the great article I read before (I think from the Library of Congress), I'll post it here for those who are interested.

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#27 John Fidel

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 06:31 PM

The issue of resource preservation over time is a major issue that has been discussed at length elsewhere (maybe here, i don't know). I remember reading something linked from the Bibleworks site that talked about the inherent difficulties in all of this. The reality is, at some point, it will likely be unsupported. This is life in the digital world. Now, Accordance may last a millennia and over updates and upgrades, but at some point, it's bound to happen. If I can find the link to the great article I read before (I think from the Library of Congress), I'll post it here for those who are interested.


Here is the link from their products page to the Digital Ice Age article you are looking for. I personally do not agree with their concerns or philosophy regarding digital books.
http://www.popularme...ts/news/4201645

I am a bit uncomfortable discussing another software company on the Accordance forum.

#28 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 08:55 PM

Here is the link from their products page to the Digital Ice Age article you are looking for. I personally do not agree with their concerns or philosophy regarding digital books.
http://www.popularme...ts/news/4201645


I know I am pretty heavily invested in Accordance, especially now that I work for the company, but I don't see any danger of them going under. This company has been here for 15 years and has shown consistent improvements and incredible commitment to the Mac platform. In the same period, music publishers have gone from cassettes, to CDs, [now] to electronic downloads (.mp3). Movies have changed formats from VHS, to DVD and now [either] BlueRay or electronic downloads. Seems like I keep buying the same content in different formats. I also keep wearing out the formats I have bought.

As far as books, even my softcover commentaries have worn out in the same period of time—and I found that rats had eaten some of the glue from the spines of my oldest books.Only my hard cover books have lasted as long—and they are nowhere near as useful. Besides, unless they are printed on acid-free paper, they will not even last 100 years. [Just look at how few ancient scrolls and codices have survived over the years!]

In all this time [15 years], I have never had to repurchase an electronic book from Accordance. Each resource just keeps working, though the platform has shown continued improvement. I am confident these resources will outlast me.
Blessings,
"Dr. J"

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#29 Daniel Francis

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 01:35 PM

In all this time [15 years], I have never had to repurchase an electronic book from Accordance. Each resource just keeps working, though the platform has shown continued improvement. I am confident these resources will outlast me.


Nor have I although occasionally something gets duplicated if I upgrade. And yes orphan software can be worrisome... I have sheep shaver running because I like my New Oxford Biblical Reference Library. So you see old does not mean dead, it just means you must be a little creative to run it. I would never give up my New Interpreter's resources wither even though it means running xp (7 would work but why bother) in parallels. There are no guarantees in life but then as TJ said rats might eat the books.. There might be a fire. Too often Christians forget that in the end everything is destroyed. that being said i want to caveat that statement reminding all we are to steward the earth not destroy it, but that being said one day, probably sooner than later all we have will be gone, either lost to time, lost in God's recreation. What is important will last the ages as it always have, as for the rest, it is like the great scholar Aquinas, whose vision of God left him unable to write, all his great works he saw as straw.

-Dan

#30 Chuck Schneider

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:24 AM

The article below is a few months old, but I figured that it's relevant to the even older thread above. ;)

How the Physical Form of a Bible Shapes Us
Will the digital Scriptures speed the decline of family spirituality once fostered by family Bibles?

Edited by Chuck Schneider, 15 May 2012 - 07:27 AM.

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#31 circuitrider

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 03:29 PM

Interesting little article you might find interesting.

http://www.roughtype...her_study_p.php

Thoughts?

Edited by circuitrider, 15 May 2012 - 03:30 PM.


#32 Michael J. Bolesta

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 04:46 PM

Interesting little article you might find interesting.

http://www.roughtype...her_study_p.php

Thoughts?


The article is interesting. The device probably is important. My wife uses computers sparingly and is a voracious reader. About a year ago she asked for a Kindle and she loves it. Some books she still gets in print (and marks them up), but she has reading at least half of her books electronically. She uses it so much, I will probably have to get my own Kindle if I want to read on one. I did read one of her books on the Kindle, and it was pleasant.

Lengthy reading on the computer is not always easy, but I find that academic articles are fine on a computer. Reading on the iPad is more pleasant. For finding something quickly, the electronic text cannot be beat, especially as a module in the powerful Accordance program.

The article you cite is more scientific, yet it is interesting that while printed books "win," a substantial minority in all groups (undergrad, grad, faculty) prefer the e text. With time the numbers may change.

Thanks for sharing!
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#33 Greg Terry

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 08:53 PM

Originally, I would have been pretty squarely in the print camp. Long term that seemed a better solution than e-texts. In the last 6 months I have been slowly turning from that. The reason? Flat simple. I find myself reading more and longer with etexts. Also, it is a whole bunch easier to find any markup I make in an etext.

My biggest concern was the long term viability of whatever etext format I would be using versus the longevity of a printed book. In the long run though, portability and usability has won me over. My current purchasing focus is etext first and print only if necessary or critically important. If I deem something important enough to have the print version, I will probably get the etext of that title eventually too.

I am banking on Accordance being around for quite some time. It seems a fairly safe wager to me. :)
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#34 JonathanHuber

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:16 PM

My biggest concern was the long term viability of whatever etext format I would be using versus the longevity of a printed book. In the long run though, portability and usability has won me over.


My thoughts exactly. I prefer reading print books, but Accordance on a Mac or iOS device is simply more accessible. Even if one considers ebooks riskier, a "risky" format that is always available and faster to use (ie. less time flipping pages) offers more value to me than a "safer" format that I use less because it takes more time or is stuck on a shelf somewhere.

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#35 circuitrider

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:33 PM

...it is a whole bunch easier to find any markup I make in an etext.



Whenever I get done reading a print book it has a good number of sticky tabs extending from it. These tabs are marking things I will come back to and write about or add to my topical reference file for later use. What is your markup workflow in your e-reader; with Accordance, Kindle or whatever you may use?

Anyone feel free to comment.

Thanks!

#36 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:57 AM

Let's not forget that this whole discussion began when computer monitors were considerable less readable than they are today. I saw an iPad 3 a couple of weeks ago. The quality of its display blew me away. It is ever-so-much-more readable than an average book. That's without considering its resizable fonts and backlighting or its ability to change the font color and page background to a user's preferences. I can use the same Accordance module on my iPhone, my iPad, and my Mac—eliminating the need for multiple copies of the same reference work so I have have one in my home and another in my office. When it comes to Bibles, I no longer need three different sizes of the same translation for different situations.

E-readers and e-texts are here to stay. The devices themselves seem to have a long life cycle—and can be solar powered if necessary. Texts can be archived and restored or downloaded again at will—and moved from device to device. It's akin to the transition from scrolls to books, easily as big a revolution as the invention of moveable type.

Nor are these gains limited to the "first" world. Developing countries have leapfrogged wired communications for cellular "smart phones." It's not unusual to see a man driving an oxcart in rural India, talking on his smart phone.

OK, I'll shut up. I am obviously a believer. ;-)
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#37 Donovan R. Palmer

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:59 AM

I have an iPad 3 with the new retina display and reading ebooks on it is wonderful. I can mark up books if need be, use them on multiple devices and can carry as many as I could ever want to read on a trip. Up until now I have only wanted reference books in e-format because of the power of Accordance... but that has all changed for me with this new iPad. Now if I can buy a book in electronic form, I have no usability reason not to do so.

I think my only remaining concern is future proofing. If you are going to spend $10K on a theological library, it needs to last a lifetime regardless of what happens in the computer market. Seeing the demise of Zondervan's Pradis platform should all cause us concern. When their materials were brought to another Bible Software product that I own, there wasn't much of a discount for Pradis users... in effect, you had to buy them again at a slightly reduced discount. OK Pradis still works and will still work for a while, but there will come a point where it is no longer viable (i.e. anyone still run DOS applications?)

Edited by Donovan R. Palmer, 16 May 2012 - 12:00 PM.

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#38 Outis

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 08:46 AM

To follow up on what some have already said here, is the text/book you are reading more reference or just simply reading material? Some commentaries are more practical and not as much exegetical. If so, the hard-text might be better suited. But if you're going to be comparing the commentary constantly and continually with the greek or hebrew, It's hard to beat having Accordance.

But even if all you're doing is reading, it looks good on the iOS app. I read through a book on my iPhone a while back and it worked fine (just imagine how much better it would have looked on an iPad). It would be better to have a forced book-marking option. But it was ok. Particularly, the scrolling option (instead of the flipping) option was quite useful.

I agree though, that there are times it's nice to have the paper copy. I highlight and take margin notes all the time in the books i read. Since one can only take notes in texts in Accordance (and not in tools and user tools), this limits its usefulness.
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#39 Fr. Rusty

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 10:15 AM

I have a question, probably stupid but, it is my question: As one of those who has been burned by a Biblical Software company falling apart, my question is this: Is there a way to own our Titles and then move them where we need to go with the software.
I understand tagging issues in relation to particular software, to some extent.
However, I don't understand having to "re-buy" my titles every time a company fails or, Operating systems change radically.

I also do not understand why some companies get Titles that other companies cannot ( does not seem very Christian minded to me, seems like secular business and secular business only).
I am having to use some software that I literally hate, simply because of the resources not being available elsewhere and, I have resources in an old program, already purchased, that I cannot use in any Mac Program.
I hate duplicating resources so many times, I have spent a lot of money over the years and, sadly, the only "constant" I have is my "real book" library, which, in this day and age, is very slow-smile.

Is there an answer to these questions? Could there be a standard format so if a person changed Software, they could pay a fee and relocate their library?
How do we protect ourselves from losing our investments?
I know Accordance is not the norm and is very stable ( wish I had everything in Accordance), but over=all, is there some standard coming, is there some way to help get things changed, make all resources avail be to all etc?

Thanks

#40 Helen Brown

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 10:41 AM

Rusty:

This has of course been discussed over the years. A common format was promoted 15 years ago, but never took off because the existing companies already had complex proprietary formats to which they were committed. The option of users importing the formats of other software has also been reviewed, but the publishers among others would object to the loss of revenue entailed. The best option is for publishers to agree to crossgrades: lower prices with lower royalties for users who retain the same content on another software platform. Sadly, only a few publishers are willing to allow this, and I encourage users to request this from publishers with whom they have contact.

May I point out that if you buy a new edition of a print book, you pay full price again. If your book is lost, stolen, or destroyed, you pay full price to replace it. Thus print copies may not last for ever, either. However, it is true that they are not dependent on software or hardware compatibility, and are easier to sell or give away.

The entire print publishing industry is struggling to deal with the revolution caused by electronic publishing. All of us want to stay in business in order to continue to serve our customers the best we can, but the future of the industry is evolving and uncertain.
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