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Strongs and the English Translations of the Septuagint


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#1 Robert N

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 09:07 AM

I am wondering if there is a Strong's for any of the English Translations of the Septuagint? Does anyone know? I would like to be able to search on an English world like fear and see how i is used throughout a greek translation of the Bible.

#2 Rick Bennett

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 09:22 AM

I am wondering if there is a Strong's for any of the English Translations of the Septuagint? Does anyone know? I would like to be able to search on an English world like fear and see how i is used throughout a greek translation of the Bible.


We do not currently have anything like this. One of the difficulties is that Strong's Greek entries were keyed to the GNT, and the LXX is a substantially larger corpus. There are thousands of words in the LXX that are not in the GNT.
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#3 Robert N

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 08:24 PM

We do not currently have anything like this. One of the difficulties is that Strong's Greek entries were keyed to the GNT, and the LXX is a substantially larger corpus. There are thousands of words in the LXX that are not in the GNT.


Rick, Thanks for taking the time to reply. I am wondering if a first step of a Strongs for the words that are in both could be made and then possibly periodic additions of the words in the LXX that are not in the GNT beginning with the most frequently occurring and ending with the least frequently occurring?

Robert



#4 Rick Bennett

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 08:42 PM

Rick, Thanks for taking the time to reply. I am wondering if a first step of a Strongs for the words that are in both could be made and then possibly periodic additions of the words in the LXX that are not in the GNT beginning with the most frequently occurring and ending with the least frequently occurring?

Robert


Yes, that would certainly be a start, but doesn't make it any less daunting of a task! ;-)

There are also other textual issues involved, e.g. what source text or language was used for a particular translation. Some books are translated from multiple languages depending on what was more complete. Tobit in the NRSV is actually a translation of multiple Greek texts (located in what we call LXX1 and LXX2). Some books follow the Gttingen editions, others Rahlf's; sometimes both.

I certainly see the value in it; it's just a much bigger venture than it may appear to be from the outset.
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#5 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 09:02 PM

I realize a daunting task--perhaps so daunting as to be impossible to implement--but it is something I would find very helpful, too.

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#6 Robert N

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 02:34 PM

Yes, that would certainly be a start, but doesn't make it any less daunting of a task! ;-)

There are also other textual issues involved, e.g. what source text or language was used for a particular translation. Some books are translated from multiple languages depending on what was more complete. Tobit in the NRSV is actually a translation of multiple Greek texts (located in what we call LXX1 and LXX2). Some books follow the Gttingen editions, others Rahlf's; sometimes both.

I certainly see the value in it; it's just a much bigger venture than it may appear to be from the outset.


I have little understanding of the amount of work it would take. I would think that segmenting the project into components and implementing them in manageable steps. The criteria might be the easiest and most useful first that being those components most used and most completely in sync with the current Strong's. This would of course also lead to Strong's for the OSB and EOB Orthodox texts which give Accordance another market that no one else has tapped and supplement its existing users as well. The idea of a Bundle for the Orthodox Church just as there are Jewish and Catholic bundles has been mentioned before. Book-wise the first focus could be upon Genesis with just the Strong's Greek. A background task might be to identify the most used non-Strong's Greek words and order them by frequency of use in the OT. THe Apocrypha being used by fewer people would be later in the project. As the beginning of the Orthodox Bundle you could have the NKJV and NKJVS and LXX. Perhaps Accordance could survey their Orthodox customers asking them what they would like to see in a set of Orthodox bundles in both the short and long term.

Anyway I think it is a good idea and helps Accordance differentiate themselves from other products. Beginning with a bundle and adding appending the Strong's Greek with the LXX words that are not found in the GNT seems like a course of action. Posted Image




#7 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 03:19 PM

Beginning with a bundle and adding appending the Strong's Greek with the LXX words that are not found in the GNT seems like a course of action. Posted Image


One difficulty with this approach is that the Strongs Greek numbers are in alphabetical order. All the non-GNT Greek words would have to be given numbers starting after 5624 (the last number in Greek Strong's). Which would leave one with two alphabetical lists. In some ways, it would be better (but far more work!) to devise a whole new numbering system just for the LXX. And it is my understanding that our knowledge of Biblical Greek has come a long ways since Strong's, bringing into question some of the assumptions in Strong's numbering system.
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#8 Anon

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 05:53 PM

One difficulty with this approach is that the Strongs Greek numbers are in alphabetical order. All the non-GNT Greek words would have to be given numbers starting after 5624 (the last number in Greek Strong's). Which would leave one with two alphabetical lists. In some ways, it would be better (but far more work!) to devise a whole new numbering system just for the LXX. And it is my understanding that our knowledge of Biblical Greek has come a long ways since Strong's, bringing into question some of the assumptions in Strong's numbering system.





I think the project is a very worthy one that someone in our time needs undertake! I agree that in some ways it would be better to author a new numbering system. However, it wouldn't be entirely from scratch. Strongs and G/K could serve as resources, along with the many, many other lexical works that have emerged. Needless to say, I think the results would be phenomenal, in that English users could expand their studies to consider the influence of the Old Greek/Septuagint(s) on the writers of the New Testament.Posted Image



#9 Robert N

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 08:53 PM

One difficulty with this approach is that the Strongs Greek numbers are in alphabetical order. All the non-GNT Greek words would have to be given numbers starting after 5624 (the last number in Greek Strong's). Which would leave one with two alphabetical lists. In some ways, it would be better (but far more work!) to devise a whole new numbering system just for the LXX. And it is my understanding that our knowledge of Biblical Greek has come a long ways since Strong's, bringing into question some of the assumptions in Strong's numbering system.


When I used to program we used another place value to allow the insertion of code in numbered sequences. An example would be a 5601.500 for a new word which would insert between 5601 and 5602 and those would become 5601.000 and 5602.000. This would eliminate the sequencing issue and allow alphabetical insertions.

Again, the first phase would be to supply Strong's for the LXX only for the already extant Strong's words. Then based on frequency of occurrence in the LXX add a few words at a time. I would sell up front because it would address many or the LXX words and as time progresses more and more would be added.

Wouldn't that reduce the initial workload/effort substantially and spread the more difficult portions out over time?

#10 Rick Bennett

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 10:12 AM

When I used to program we used another place value to allow the insertion of code in numbered sequences. An example would be a 5601.500 for a new word which would insert between 5601 and 5602 and those would become 5601.000 and 5602.000. This would eliminate the sequencing issue and allow alphabetical insertions.

Again, the first phase would be to supply Strong's for the LXX only for the already extant Strong's words. Then based on frequency of occurrence in the LXX add a few words at a time. I would sell up front because it would address many or the LXX words and as time progresses more and more would be added.

Wouldn't that reduce the initial workload/effort substantially and spread the more difficult portions out over time?


Hi Robert,

I appreciate the suggestions, but the larger factor in this is simply the sheer size of the project (regardless of how the new entries are organized). We are currently in the midst of several large-scale tagging projects: Greek and Hebrew Syntax, Qumran Syntax, Syriac Peshitta, in addition to some other new resources. These existing projects need to progress further before we can seriously consider tagging an English translation of the LXX.

The request is on our radar; in fact, it has been for some time.

Thanks for your support. :)

Rick
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#11 Robert N

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 03:57 AM

I have come across this as a module for another program... e-Sword. The module is called the the Apostolic Bible Polyglot. I am interested to know if this might short cut the process and bring us closer to the LXX with Strong's. Here is the info on it...


Apostolic Bible Polyglot
Copyright 1996 Charles Van der Pool.

The Apostolic Bible Polyglot is a Greek-English Interlinear of the Greek Septuagint and New Testament coded to Strong's numbers.

Free printable PDF's of the Apostolic Bible Polyglot may be downloaded and printed editions may be purchased at
www.apostolicbible.com.

Greek words which appear in the Septuagint but not in the New Testament are inserted with decimal points, such as G303.1. Proper names are numbered with an asterisk, such as G*.

Here is the window of the module...


Mal 4:1 ForG1360 behold,G2400 a dayG2250 comesG2064 burningG2545 asG5613 an oven;G2823 andG2532 it shall blaze against them,G5392.2 G1473 andG2532 [4will beG1510.8.6 1allG3956 2theG3588 3foreigners],G241 andG2532 allG3956 the onesG3588 doingG4160 lawless deeds,G459 as stubble.G2562 AndG2532 [4shall lightG381 5themG1473 1theG3588 2dayG2250 G3588

Edited by Robert N, 27 December 2011 - 03:59 AM.

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#12 Rick Bennett

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 09:49 AM

I have come across this as a module for another program... e-Sword. The module is called the the Apostolic Bible Polyglot. I am interested to know if this might short cut the process and bring us closer to the LXX with Strong's. Here is the info on it...


Apostolic Bible Polyglot
Copyright 1996 Charles Van der Pool.

The Apostolic Bible Polyglot is a Greek-English Interlinear of the Greek Septuagint and New Testament coded to Strong's numbers.

Free printable PDF's of the Apostolic Bible Polyglot may be downloaded and printed editions may be purchased at
www.apostolicbible.com.

Greek words which appear in the Septuagint but not in the New Testament are inserted with decimal points, such as G303.1. Proper names are numbered with an asterisk, such as G*.

Here is the window of the module...


Mal 4:1 ForG1360 behold,G2400 a dayG2250 comesG2064 burningG2545 asG5613 an oven;G2823 andG2532 it shall blaze against them,G5392.2 G1473 andG2532 [4will beG1510.8.6 1allG3956 2theG3588 3foreigners],G241 andG2532 allG3956 the onesG3588 doingG4160 lawless deeds,G459 as stubble.G2562 AndG2532 [4shall lightG381 5themG1473 1theG3588 2dayG2250 G3588


This was pointed out in another thread and I passed the info along; I can follow-up. And yes, if the work is already done, it would certainly short-cut the process.

Thank you…
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#13 Robert N

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 06:23 AM

Any update on the status of this becoming a project especially in light of the Apostolic Polyglot Bible?

#14 Fabian

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 04:19 AM

We do not currently have anything like this. One of the difficulties is that Strong's Greek entries were keyed to the GNT, and the LXX is a substantially larger corpus. There are thousands of words in the LXX that are not in the GNT.

Yes but, with the Goodrick-Kohlenberger numbers it will be possible. IF you and they are willing, to add this numbers to their system. 

 

Like this https://www.amazon.c...ywords=goodrickand then they can add "NEW VERSION, Now with the words from the Septuagint". Have you asked the Copyright holder?

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


Greetings

Fabian

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bugs, I describe.

PLEASE!
Bring more international Bibles to the store,
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#15 Rick Bennett

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 12:09 PM

Yes but, with the Goodrick-Kohlenberger numbers it will be possible. IF you and they are willing, to add this numbers to their system. 

 

Like this https://www.amazon.c...ywords=goodrickand then they can add "NEW VERSION, Now with the words from the Septuagint". Have you asked the Copyright holder?

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

 

Whether Strong's or GK, the same problem(s) remain.

 

And, I don't see what this has to do with the NIV Concordance. The NIV doesn't contain the Apocrypha, and the editor of the Concordance passed away shortly after the completion of the newest edition, which we partnered with him on.


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#16 Fabian

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 12:22 PM

Whether Strong's or GK, the same problem(s) remain.

 

And, I don't see what this has to do with the NIV Concordance. The NIV doesn't contain the Apocrypha, and the editor of the Concordance passed away shortly after the completion of the newest edition, which we partnered with him on.

 

I think, maybe I'm wrong, the publisher have the rights now. They have sold it from the passed away writhers. So it would be possible to come in agreement with him and finish the work.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


Greetings

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ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bugs, I describe.

PLEASE!
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in nearer future.

#17 Rick Bennett

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 12:25 PM

I think, maybe I'm wrong, the publisher have the rights now. They have sold it from the passed away writhers. So it would be possible to come in agreement with him and finish the work.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

 

There's nothing to finish. The NIV Concordance is completely separate from this discussion.

 

The GK numbers themselves are public domain. That still does not change the issues regarding the tagging of a particular translation of the Apocrypha.


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#18 MattChristian

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 11:40 AM

There's nothing to finish. The NIV Concordance is completely separate from this discussion.

 

The GK numbers themselves are public domain. That still does not change the issues regarding the tagging of a particular translation of the Apocrypha.

Has anyone looked into Hatch and Redpath? While flawed it essentially would do what is asked here, sans the Strongs numbers. Its a great LXX resource. I would also push for Muraoka's lexicon but that would not give a English to Greek option. I believe Hatch and Redpath has an index volume that should help that process (if memory serves I believe the index was made by Muraoka as well).


Cheers,

 

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#19 Fabian

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 11:45 AM

There's nothing to finish. The NIV Concordance is completely separate from this discussion.

 

The GK numbers themselves are public domain. That still does not change the issues regarding the tagging of a particular translation of the Apocrypha.

If the LXX not tagged then this is not Finishedperiod. Just simple as that. 

 

Others can do it!

Attached File  Bildschirmfoto 2019-05-08 um 18.48.43.png   441.26KB   0 downloads And with the Latin too.


Edited by Fabian, 08 May 2019 - 11:48 AM.

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Greetings

Fabian

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bugs, I describe.

PLEASE!
Bring more international Bibles to the store,
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in nearer future.

#20 Rick Bennett

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 03:31 PM

If the LXX not tagged then this is not Finishedperiod. Just simple as that. 

 

Others can do it!

attachicon.gifBildschirmfoto 2019-05-08 um 18.48.43.png And with the Latin too.

 

There is nothing more to say on this subject at present.

 

To summarize:

 

We do not have any current plans to tag an English translation of the LXX with Strong's (or GK) numbers. It's a huge task, and not one that we are currently interested in investing in. Maybe that will change, but in the 7.5 years since this was originally posted, the decision has not changed. Strong's and GK were not designed to be applied to the LXX. Creating an alternate system that does apply to the LXX is counterproductive. These numbers are simply a bridge to the original language, and there are better ways to accomplish this.

 

Since this thread was originally started, we have applied the Tov MT-LXX Database to our Interlinear feature. This will accomplish much of what is desired on this front, except that it will not cross-highlight to an English translation of the LXX. While there is value in this, and others may have done this to varying degrees, we have not done so at present. 

 

This thread will be closed after this reply. If there are new requests, please start a new thread. Thank you as always for everyone's feedback and support.


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