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Different Genitives


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#1 calton

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 10:32 AM

Is there a way to see which Genitives are options?   Such as this..σωτηρίου τῷ κυρίῳ.  Trying to figure out what kind of Genitive this might be.  

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#2 Abram K-J

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 12:14 PM

If you mean the different ways the genitive can function (subjective, objective, etc.), no, this doesn't exist in Accordance. There is a Syntax module for the Greek New Testament that gives more than just "genitive"; it shows how words and clauses function in relation to each other, but that's something different from what I think you're asking (and there is no Syntax module for the LXX).

 

Also (off-topic), that's a beautiful passage (the prayer in Jonah 2) in your screenshot!


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#3 calton

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 12:24 PM

If you mean the different ways the genitive can function (subjective, objective, etc.), no, this doesn't exist in Accordance. There is a Syntax module for the Greek New Testament that gives more than just "genitive"; it shows how words and clauses function in relation to each other, but that's something different from what I think you're asking (and there is no Syntax module for the LXX).

 

Also (off-topic), that's a beautiful passage (the prayer in Jonah 2) in your screenshot!

Yes, I was looking for something that might show the different ways a Genitive could be used, such as a subjective, objective, etc.  I also really like the Jonah 2 passage.  



#4 Abram K-J

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 12:35 PM

One possible workaround is to check the Grammars section of your Info Pane, which will show any of your grammars when they has the verse you are looking at. (You may already do this.) This will be spotty, of course, but at least then you could quickly see if one of your grammars treats the verse you're looking at.


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#5 calton

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 05:07 PM

One possible workaround is to check the Grammars section of your Info Pane, which will show any of your grammars when they has the verse you are looking at. (You may already do this.) This will be spotty, of course, but at least then you could quickly see if one of your grammars treats the verse you're looking at.

Abram, 

thanks for the insight.  I do check the Grammers.  I wish their was a right click option under search for different cases with a further arrow option for the diff kinds of Genitives.  

Garrell



#6 Abram K-J

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 05:09 PM

Yeah, I can see the value in that. I think that would probably require a pretty massive database to be created, and it seems to me that anyone with the qualifications to do it would be quick to point out the interpretive/subjective nature of saying which kind of genitive it is in a given instance. I could be wrong, though.


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#7 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 05:20 PM

The genitive and the dative, but more so the genitive, are beasts. The diversity of application is interesting. Many (most) grammars document and name many uses. They don't all agree, some wonder openly about existence of some of the categories they suggest. To encode a look up and diagnostic tests for the different genitives into the tool, would mean adopting a grammar and then encoding that knowledge. An amplify style search to grammars is more tractable and might already be doable. I don't remember all the categories really. I try rather to remember the uses. Ultimately I am trying to develop a feeling for the dative and a feeling for the genitive - some of the category names are almost and obstacle in themselves.

 

Also, were you interested in discussion of this specific case or was it just an example in the request for the feature ?

 

Thx

D


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#8 calton

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 05:24 PM

Yeah, I can see the value in that. I think that would probably require a pretty massive database to be created, and it seems to me that anyone with the qualifications to do it would be quick to point out the interpretive/subjective nature of saying which kind of genitive it is in a given instance. I could be wrong, though.

That would be awesome, I was thinking a quick glance sheet option.  It would show perhaps "Genitive Absolute: a quick def out to the side, so we could see which best fits the context.  I am really enjoying Accordance and the usefulness of its capabilities.   



#9 calton

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 06:08 PM

The genitive and the dative, but more so the genitive, are beasts. The diversity of application is interesting. Many (most) grammars document and name many uses. They don't all agree, some wonder openly about existence of some of the categories they suggest. To encode a look up and diagnostic tests for the different genitives into the tool, would mean adopting a grammar and then encoding that knowledge. An amplify style search to grammars is more tractable and might already be doable. I don't remember all the categories really. I try rather to remember the uses. Ultimately I am trying to develop a feeling for the dative and a feeling for the genitive - some of the category names are almost and obstacle in themselves.

 

Also, were you interested in discussion of this specific case or was it just an example in the request for the feature ?

 

Thx

D

This is a good example. However, I was thinking more of just the title and definition.  I wish they had this for each case.  

 

https://www.ntgreek....nitive_case.pdf



#10 Abram K-J

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 06:13 PM

I resonate with Daniel: "Ultimately I am trying to develop a feeling for the dative and a feeling for the genitive - some of the category names are almost and obstacle in themselves." I've heard some suggest that Wallace (on whose grammar that chart seems to be based) goes a little too far with categorization. :) To each their own, though! That is a useful chart, and I'll file it away for myself. There's also a laminated foldout sheet summary of his grammar available..


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#11 calton

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 06:36 PM

The genitive and the dative, but more so the genitive, are beasts. The diversity of application is interesting. Many (most) grammars document and name many uses. They don't all agree, some wonder openly about existence of some of the categories they suggest. To encode a look up and diagnostic tests for the different genitives into the tool, would mean adopting a grammar and then encoding that knowledge. An amplify style search to grammars is more tractable and might already be doable. I don't remember all the categories really. I try rather to remember the uses. Ultimately I am trying to develop a feeling for the dative and a feeling for the genitive - some of the category names are almost and obstacle in themselves.

 

Also, were you interested in discussion of this specific case or was it just an example in the request for the feature ?

 

Thx

D

D,  I am not looking for Accordance to tell me what kind of Genitive.  I was thinking of a more simple guide that would either be a right click, scroll wheel click, etc to show all the options of a Genitive.  But I do like what you have stated above.  To answer your question it is kind of both.  I would love to see a feature for each case.  

G


Edited by calton, 20 November 2019 - 06:47 PM.


#12 mgvh

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 06:52 PM

Accordance is planning on releasing a quick reference grammar I've developed as a module. I've adapted some of Wallace's work, but I've tried to condense it down to ~single sheets. I'll attach the "Cases and Their Functions" as an example of what I'm doing.

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#13 Abram K-J

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 07:26 PM

Accordance is planning on releasing a quick reference grammar I've developed as a module.

 

Awesome! This will be really useful. When I first came over from BibleWorks, I remember lamenting the absence of easy-access paradigm charts. I know that's not what you said you are doing, but it is along similar lines and will be a welcomed addition!


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#14 A. Smith

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 10:13 PM

My suggestion, be glad accordance doesn’t tell you ‘what kind of genetive’ you’re looking at. In Greek, there is only one genitive. And only one dative, etc. Anything else beyond that is interpretive and requires more than a simple mouse over to assess. 


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#15 calton

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 04:26 PM

My suggestion, be glad accordance doesn’t tell you ‘what kind of genetive’ you’re looking at. In Greek, there is only one genitive. And only one dative, etc. Anything else beyond that is interpretive and requires more than a simple mouse over to assess. 

I am glad Accordance does not tell me what kind of genitive, I hope I have been clear about that from the above post.  I only am looking at a simple guide as to the option of Genitives.  I only chose Genitives because there are so many options.  I was only looking for a right-click option or a scroll-wheel option that would allow me to see the different options for each case and each mood and possible a small def for each.  



#16 A. Smith

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 07:19 PM

I am glad Accordance does not tell me what kind of genitive, I hope I have been clear about that from the above post.  I only am looking at a simple guide as to the option of Genitives.  I only chose Genitives because there are so many options.  I was only looking for a right-click option or a scroll-wheel option that would allow me to see the different options for each case and each mood and possible a small def for each.  

I understand, but even that is up to interpretation. Check any two grammars and you'll see two different sets of categorization. Wallace, for example, loves to multiply categories. Mathewson and Emig, on the other hand, are much more minimalistic. So whose categories should accordance choose to list? And who makes the choice? Based on what criteria? The cases are (and tenses, aspects, etc) all have a range of uses and we categorize them in certain schemas, usually for the sake of translation. However, that's not actually how Greek works. And, without getting into a debate, I'll suggest it's always best to try and read a language as that language, rather than as a code to decipher into another language. I'm pretty passionate about this stuff, actually. But I won't keep beating the horse, unless you've got a specific question. 


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#17 calton

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Posted 22 November 2019 - 03:16 PM

I understand, but even that is up to interpretation. Check any two grammars and you'll see two different sets of categorization. Wallace, for example, loves to multiply categories. Mathewson and Emig, on the other hand, are much more minimalistic. So whose categories should accordance choose to list? And who makes the choice? Based on what criteria? The cases are (and tenses, aspects, etc) all have a range of uses and we categorize them in certain schemas, usually for the sake of translation. However, that's not actually how Greek works. And, without getting into a debate, I'll suggest it's always best to try and read a language as that language, rather than as a code to decipher into another language. I'm pretty passionate about this stuff, actually. But I won't keep beating the horse, unless you've got a specific question. 

Smith, 

Thanks for your thoughts, really appreciate it.  I don't think you are beating a dead horse, just giving your perspective.  Thanks,

Garrell


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